Gen Set Air Comp Combo

[Ed Kennell 38,021]

2 minutes ago, JoeM said:

Could kind of but crude. you would have this massive cycling of air pressure. 

Agree Joe,   Much better to unload the pump when the working pressure is reached.

[JoeM 7,871]

4 minutes ago, Ed Kennell said:

Much better to unload the pump when the working pressure is reached

And to cut in when the pressure is low and necessary. keep r in a range.

[JoeM 7,871]

First would be to get r pumping and see what if any unknowns. 

Then get fancy.

 

I just wonder taking a pressure relief and plumbing in a valve on the outlet and to very the differential of pressure and make up a cheap version of the unloader.

 

I got to go get a coffee......way to much thinking this early in the year.

 

I like the idea. 

[oliver2-44 9,678]

3 hours ago, pfrederi said:

There was an optional hose that was available with old farm tractors.  Take out one spark plug thread the hose in Start her up and run on 3 cylinders inflate the tires with output of #4.  Always wondered about the advisability of filling a 13.6X38 rear tire with and explosive mixture of air and gas... But hey this was pre OHSA

some years ago i went to my brothers South Texas deer lease. The rancher down there had a large (maybe 500 gallon) butane tank hooked behind a large old tractor with a 20 ft sprayer bar converter to butane burners.  The 600 acre ranch was covered in cactus. He used it to burn needles off the cactus for the cattle to eat.  The butane tank had an air hose cove of of it with an air chuck.  The tractor and butane tank tires were filled with butane. 

Edited January 1 by oliver2-44

[Ed Kennell 38,021]

6 minutes ago, oliver2-44 said:

The tractor and butane tank tires were filled with butane

           

[Ed Kennell 38,021]

I stuck the VOM on the AC and The RPM has little effect on the VAC.    I measured 120v at 1000RPM and it only increased to 130v at 3000RPM.

So I'm thinking only the Amperage and the Hz is increasing with RPM above 1000.  I don't have a scope to measure Hz. Any ideas?

The DC output measured 13V.   So I have a good AC and DC supply.   I need to put voltmeters on both.

 

 

More thoughts on the compressor check valves.

If I take the springs off and shorten the stems on both valves so they float,   I should have a good air intake check valve.  The vacuum from the piston down strokes should lift the valves pulling air in.     Gravity and the pressure from the piston up strokes should close and seal the valves pushing the air thru the tank check valve.    

Thoughts??

[Handy Don 12,131]

45 minutes ago, Ed Kennell said:

Thoughts??

My sense would be that the mass plus stem friction of the intake and exhaust valves is too great for air pressure alone to reliably operate them, especially at frequencies like 00’s or 000’s of RPM. 

 

A meter with frequency is invaluable for generator checking. Assuming you don’t intend this to run electronics or a speed-sensitive motor, a tachometer may give you a close enough reading. Depending on the generator’s windings, it’ll be either 1800 or 3600 rpm ==> 60 hz.

Edited January 1 by Handy Don

[c-series don 8,661]

I’m thinking the old generator Ed started with is 1800 rpm but I could be totally wrong. Just an educated guess. 

[wallfish 16,981]

1 hour ago, Ed Kennell said:

Thoughts??

weaker springs and it might work

[Handy Don 12,131]

34 minutes ago, c-series don said:

I’m thinking the old generator Ed started with is 1800 rpm but I could be totally wrong. Just an educated guess. 

I agree. Lots of these RV or marine Onan gensets were intended for long life and wound for 1800 RPM. If he’s lucky, he has one of those!

Note that the generators of those times nearly all had brush commutators--something to be sure to check for condition and to never operate in an area with flammable gas fumes!

[JoeM 7,871]

6 hours ago, Ed Kennell said:

I don't have a scope to measure Hz. Any ideas?

been a while since I fooled with this stuff but just thinking out loud, do you have an electric motor, like and old furnace blower motor? Hook it up and run it and check the rpm on the furnace motor while changing RPM on the generator. Might just find the right frequency rpm that way?? Like a fine tune. 

 

 

[Rick3478 428]

11 hours ago, wallfish said:

Maybe use the hose off a compression tester if you can't something.

Wonder if there's a way to manipulate the intake valves and lock the exhaust valve in order to get air on every other stroke?

Just think'n out loud again

 

If you've abandoned the idea of ever getting the motor to run, you could remove the valves and fit reeds over the seats, screw check valve into the spark plug hole for output.

[oliver2-44 9,678]

Can you pull the end cover off the generator and see how many poles it has?

When working with AC generators’ 7200 is a magic number. 
An AC generator with 2 poles operates at 3600rpm. (3600*2)=7200

An AC generator with 4 poles operates at 1800 rpm

The Hydro Turbine generators I worked with were slow speed machines. We had:

200 rpm x 36 poles

171.4 rpm x 42 poles

144 rpm x 50 poles

100 rpm x 60 poles 

 

[Handy Don 12,131]

21 hours ago, oliver2-44 said:

Can you pull the end cover off the generator and see how many poles it has?

 

Great info, thanks. Now, what’s a pole look like....

[peter lena 8,580]

@Ed Kennell   idea, maybe a frame connection to the , tractor  front hitch area ,helping stabilizing , unit , also make up a spring loaded idler pulley for that belt set up , maybe combine them?  good experiment , Pete 

[Ed Kennell 38,021]

Just now, peter lena said:

@Ed Kennell   idea, maybe a frame connection to the , tractor  front hitch area ,helping stabilizing , unit , also make up a spring loaded idler pulley for that belt set up , maybe combine them?  good experiment , Pete 

Agree Pete, maybe a telescoping bar between the tractor and the gen set.     This unit is very heavy, on wheels and will be towable and made to use on any tractor with a PTO.

And a spring loaded tensioner will be added to stop the belt slap.

[ebinmaine 67,256]

47 minutes ago, Ed Kennell said:

Agree Pete, maybe a telescoping bar between the tractor and the gen set.     This unit is very heavy, on wheels and will be towable and made to use on any tractor with a PTO.

And a spring loaded tensioner will be added to stop the belt slap.

 

I meant to ask about that around the first pics posted. 

I like the idea of keeping it usable on ANY standard WH PTO.  

 

[peter lena 8,580]

@Ed Kennell  ED , think if anything , advantage , you, it runs / works ,  think I would just get some flat steel  stock and do a trial lay out . you probably have a good stash of , used everything , know I do ,  good luck , Pete

[Ed Kennell 38,021]

1 hour ago, ebinmaine said:

 

 

I like the idea of keeping it usable on ANY standard WH PTO.  

 

Right, the idea is to tow it, trailer it, take it to shows where anyone could use it with their WH to pump up tires, charge batteries, jump start engines, and have 110v power.

[wallfish 16,981]

2 hours ago, Ed Kennell said:

Right, the idea is to tow it, trailer it, take it to shows where anyone could use it with their WH to pump up tires, charge batteries, jump start engines, and have 110v power.

Like a swinging tow bar.

Tow, pull a pin to swing it to the side for operation, rotate straight up for storage of it

[Ed Kennell 38,021]

57 minutes ago, wallfish said:

Like a swinging tow bar.

Actually John, I made  wheels and a telescoping (pipe in a pipe) tow/handle when I used it as a gen set years ago.      A short position for towing and storing and a long position for lifting and pulling by hand.   Keep the ideas coming...thanks.

[Ed Kennell 38,021]

OK, we know we have a 110vac and a 12vdc supply, so today I brough her into the heated shop to work on the compressor.    Removed the carb, fuel pump, head, and some tins.

 

Everything looks good  under the head.   For my first trial, I think I'll leave the valves alone close the spark plug hole and add a check valve to the exhaust pipe.

I'm thinking I'll have a 1 stroke active pump and one stroke inactive.

stroke                         intake valve                         exhaust valve                     air movement

 

intake                           open                                     closed                                into the cylinder

compression                 closed                                   closed                                zero  only compressed

power                            closed                                   closed                                zero  only expanding

exhaust                         closed                                    open                                  thru the exhaust pipe, check valve to tank.

 

 

Jim, I did pull the end cover off and I only see two coils (poles) so I guess I need 3600 revs to get my 60 Hz.   May have to go to a smaller pulley on the gen.

I see three narrow brush rings and one wider one closer to the armature.     Ac and Dc ?

 

 

                                              Comments????

[JoeM 7,871]

1 hour ago, Ed Kennell said:

  Comments????

I like it. Simple way to see how the compressor will work. 

Wonder if an old hot water tank relief can be adjusted and used as a trial?

 

[Ed Kennell 38,021]

Update on the compressor/ 12VDC/120VAC gen set.

I decided to just use the existing intake and exhaust valves for the first trial run of the compressor.    I valved off the spark plug hole that can be opened for bypass when the compressor is not in use.  Hopefully air will be sucked in on the intake stroke, nothing happens on the compression and power stroke, then compressed air is supplied on the exhaust stroke.

All my available tractors have plows or blowers and the mowers are in winter storage. Guess I need to get one out of storage to test the compressor.

I used Johns @wallfish idea on the hitch.   I all ready had a telescoping hitch that could be extended for towing.   So, I simply made an adapter to turn it 90 degrees so it  will connect to the attach-a-matic and lock the gen set to the tractor.   The spring loaded tensioner pulley will provide tension on the drive belt.

 

 

 

[wallfish 16,981]

That is definitely a fun project!