Spindle bearing lube query

[tbear853 58]

OK, all my three new deck spindle housings are in hand.    I had a couple "broken" ones.  My deck is a '90s 48" side discharge, 78361 is the model number.  It replaced a smaller deck on my 1981 tractor, was NOS at a dealer, installed in 2002.  I bought a set of 6 new spindle bearings, they are here too.  (6 Pk) 109966 Premium C3 Bearings fits TORO Wheel Horse Tractor Mowers | eBay .  They are the correct bearings and are 40mm x 17mm x 12mm thick.  They are sealed both sides, but seals are removable.  They are said to be packed with -40 to 400 degree f grease, but I'll take a peak to be sure.  

 

I have lithium based high temp grease on hand, even the red sticky stuff.  If I leave these sealed, it seems pointless to pump grease down the spindle shafts.  If I remove just the inner side seals, I'd grease via the spindle shaft top grease zirks of course.  I expect any 400 degree grease would be a lithium base grease, and compatible.  

 

QUERY: Should I remove the inner side (facing each other) seals and pump my grease in, ... or ... leave these bearings sealed as is?  Any experiences either way are welcomed.  

 

I have considered leaving them sealed and ordering another set to just have on hand for a possible future replacement.

Edited December 8, 2023 by tbear853

[squonk 41,072]

At minimum I would pop a seal out and see how much grease is really in there. I have bought several bearings from many different suppliers and the grease in the bearings have been minimal. Leaving the seals in keeps the dirt out but I would rather be able to add grease through the zerk so I vote leaving the inner facing seals out.

[ri702bill 8,316]

1 hour ago, squonk said:

but I would rather be able to add grease through the zerk so I vote leaving the inner facing seals out.

I will add to that..... not all greases play well with others.  Flush out the new bearings so there is only one type of grease being used - the one you choose. Lucas green Xtra Heavy Duty is a great choice - IF you can find it.... Repack the bearings with your grease before assembly.

Edited December 8, 2023 by ri702bill

[peter lena 8,612]

@tbear853  agree with  @ri702bill  on the seal removal , carb clean flush out and repack with the lucas green grease , or lucas marine grease , both exceed 55o drop point , that grease stands up to heat / stress , no whiny  hi pitched noise , indicating lube failure . would also consider doing the matching MULE DRIVE BEARINGS , same clean out and re lube . that will only eave the pto cone outer bearing , which is sealed , check for roughness , replace if bad , the inner needle bearing ,has to be  wiped out clean and lightly repacked with the same Lucas  grease . excess lube slings to clutch face , avoid that . have removed both seals on bearings , small flat putty knife , or pocket screwdriver , go easy on the removal , so you can replace .  would also leave the inner SPINDLE SEALS OUT , TOP AND BOTTOM OF BEARING  SEALS REPLACED , KEEP OUT DIRT . ZERK  will work on touching up inner bearings . very worthwhile , improvement on those decks , no noise , spin with ease , pete   

[tbear853 58]

I sent them an email, an engineer replied saying they use a synthetic lithium base high temp grease, but that if I was going to apply grease with a gun in a zerk, was best to remove the seals and clean them and repack and replace the off side seal.

 

Just got an update:  "I am sorry for that type-o
Correction: Our Grease is synthetic but NOT lithium based."

Edited December 8, 2023 by tbear853
Got an update from the manufacturer.

[peter lena 8,612]

@tbear853  done a number of decks , initially went after the , constant whining , bearing failure . then added in the mule drive , and also added in the PTO LEVER , set up detailing , have 3 decks set up the same way , all 42 " R/D . also do a thorough , rustproofing . the constant noisy failure , was more than a map, detailed in every moving part of it , washed up every , sloppy linkage point , kept after function. today , very easy , solid smooth , PTO LEVER engagement , always slow feed it in , no screaming anything , also drop my decks in summer , for a look see, propped up to sun , for a light cleaning , and a sun hot under deck , to break the grunge cycle . also add some aerosol , lubrication , to the hot deck underside , small fine file , for blade touch up , sit in sun couple hours , reinstall,  engage it , and it sounds and works like a  fresh deck . try to do the same , tracking / refitting for any issue , pete 

[tbear853 58]

Today I'm gonna put her together.  My blade spindles do not use keys at the pulleys, just tight bolts.  The top nut next to the grease zirk above a lock washer over the pulley looks like should be 60-80 ft lbs torque.  The lowest end blade retainer nut looks to be 80-100 ft lbs.  I haven't seen a figure for the four 3/8" spindle housing to deck bolts (12 total) with the lock tite ... but I figure 35-40 ft lbs is good.

 

My new bearings are unsealed, cleaned, dry, and I'll hand pack them today, put a seal on one side each, and put them in my new spindle bodies.  The spindle shafts are a smooth snug sliding fit in the bearing inner bores.  I'll just use the spindle shafts to align the bearings and spacer as I press in, but then remove the shafts to bolt the housings with blue lock tite to the deck.  Then I'll slide the shafts up through from below with washers, spacers, etc and into the pulleys for the install of the top nut / washer.  I know I can put pulleys on the outboard with the shafts already in place, but the center one will work better if I hold the pulley over the hole as I push the shaft up ... because of the deck top hardware.  Last I'll put my zerks in and pump each spindle full.  I'll re-lube my PTO, mule drive, & deck idler bearings too.  I did find a new in box set of "Gator" blades on a shelf, so I'll slip them on too.  Wife wants to attack the leaves this week.

 

I have several grease guns, but all are loaded with something.  One is loaded with Kendall high temperature L-427 Super Blue NLGI-2 , I have several extra tubes, and I have a pound tub.  It's drop point is > 500*f (or >260*c), it'll do well.    
KENDALL_L-427_SUPER_BLU_PDS.pdf (petroleumservicecompany.com)

I also bought a couple tubes of Valvoline Extreme Red Grease but it'll keep it on hand until/if ever I use up my Kendall.  It is "same same", ratings, etc ... it's just red.  

US_Val_ExtremeRedMP_GRS_EN.pdf - DocuSign CLM (springcm.com)

Edited December 11, 2023 by tbear853

[peter lena 8,612]

@tbear853  are you going to also re grease the mule  drive bearings ? go over / or replace the PTO cone bearing , inner needle bearing ?? they are are vital part of drive rotation , typically use the PTO  / mule drive down drive belt , as a smooth / easy verification of movement ease. should be easy to get a deck spin out of that . notice how many are looking for PTO  clutch discs ?  thats bearing bind , also do a  slower lever feed in . good luck with that , Pete 

[tbear853 58]

On 12/11/2023 at 12:53 PM, peter lena said:

@tbear853  are you going to also re grease the mule  drive bearings ? go over / or replace the PTO cone bearing , inner needle bearing ?? they are are vital part of drive rotation , typically use the PTO  / mule drive down drive belt , as a smooth / easy verification of movement ease. should be easy to get a deck spin out of that . notice how many are looking for PTO  clutch discs ?  thats bearing bind , also do a  slower lever feed in . good luck with that , Pete 

Thanks ... My cone bearing and needle bearing in the PTO are near perfect, and the mule drive pulleys were also checked, V pulley bearing was near dry, but flat idler bearing was good.  Unsealed, cleaned, dried, repack, and resealed both though and both are  near perfect now.  My PTO clutch lining was new with the last engine swap, and I have an extra.   We neither one ever feed the PTO fast, rather just ease into it, such that the V-twin doesn't hardly even take notice.

 

My reason for this spindle job was a bearing in the bottom of the spindle on the exit or right side of the deck, self destructed.  I greased them, but unknown to me, the spindle housing had "developed" a hole in it's side wall about midway down between the upper and lower bearing. I think spindle housing was just eroded, but might have had an impact as it was on the forward left side where maybe the middle blade throwed something? I never did find the first ball, just the inner and outer race of the bearing.  When I greased it, grease was likely exiting onto the grass before getting to that lower bearing, and dirt likely entered as well,  then after the bearing went south from such abuse, there was the vibration as the blade worked cracking the spindle housing base.  The middle spindle housing was cracked too at it's mount base.  My wife was using it, and she just knew it was suddenly making a noise and "felt funny".  

 

It is all smooth again.  I have a set of 3 new blades, but decided to just sit on them for now.  I sharpened and balanced my 6 (2 sets) older ones.   I have a set of originals as well, worn to pointy nubs almost.  Putting the deck back on and taking a test ride the 12th, it's about as smooth or maybe smoother ... than ever.  My cone bearing is OK, but I'm gonna order one before I take mine apart.  Likely get a new seal for beside the needle bearing too.

 

Again, Thank You.

Edited December 13, 2023 by tbear853
test ride results

[peter lena 8,612]

 @tbear853  often hear about spindle corrosion , must be an an acidic type of grass relationship , luckily have not had any issue with that on mine , cannot say for sure , but think the the gear spray , that is a baseline corrosion protection , that is on my decks is definitely protecting the metal . all are stained black , and shed moisture / grunge , consistently. also use a  mirror under the deck to regularly just check things out , Pete  

[tbear853 58]

22 hours ago, peter lena said:

 @tbear853  often hear about spindle corrosion , must be an an acidic type of grass relationship , luckily have not had any issue with that on mine , cannot say for sure , but think the the gear spray , that is a baseline corrosion protection , that is on my decks is definitely protecting the metal . all are stained black , and shed moisture / grunge , consistently. also use a  mirror under the deck to regularly just check things out , Pete  

What is this "gear spray" of which you write?  

[peter lena 8,612]

best applied @tbear853 https://www.google.com/search?q=open+gear+spray+lube&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS866US866&oq=&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqBggCEEUYOzIGCAAQRRg5MgYIARBFGEAyBggCEEUYOzIMCAMQIxgnGIAEGIoFMgcIBBAAGIAEMgYIBRBFGDwyBggGEEUYPDIGCAcQRRg90gEIOTg2MGowajSoAgC, use this and similar , terrific rustproofing , best price on this type of lubricant .  best applied , to a dry clean deck , then propped up to the sun , for hot sun to metal effect . my decks have this on them now , in winter storage , months of lubrication soaking , pete

[tbear853 58]

Just an update ... between new grease in new bearings in new spindle housings on the deck, new grease in mule drive and PTO, a freshening of the blades, and fine tuned balance, and after final greasing putting rubber brake bleeder caps on the zerks ... wife said it was hard to be sure the blades were turning, so smooth it was as she worked leaves today.

[peter lena 8,612]

@tbear853  yes the COLECTIVE   rotation adds up , always ask about every related area , leave nothing to chance , found that process on any related w/h problem , makes the issue go away , regularly look over everything . easy to spot a problem , when it been, solid with operation . also have a shut down /  back in shed check over , do it every time I use my horses .  like the assurance of  operation .  pete

[heysavoy 16]

On 12/15/2023 at 4:26 PM, tbear853 said:

Just an update ... between new grease in new bearings in new spindle housings on the deck, new grease in mule drive and PTO, a freshening of the blades, and fine tuned balance, and after final greasing putting rubber brake bleeder caps on the zerks ... wife said it was hard to be sure the blades were turning, so smooth it was as she worked leaves today.

 

Any tips on how to grease PTO? Mine is speaking when I engage. Thanks

 

[peter lena 8,612]

@heysavoy  that PTO has a needle bearing , inside the cone area , like a minimal amount  of hi temp grease , after a wipe out of what's there ,  a polyurea rated grease  , anti sling would also minimize any slinging , up to clutch face , avoid that . outer bearing is sealed , available at auto parts , for a match up . do you just slam  the PTO lever  forward  ?  or engage it slowly ? typically , belt squealing  is  resistance to rotation , might also have to adjust your  lever on threaded end , for smoother / easier engagement . think your maintenance  , is at the adjustment / trial stage . lubricate the trunnion  threaded rod area , and adjust for smoothest , engagement . pete     

[heysavoy 16]

1 hour ago, peter lena said:

@heysavoy  that PTO has a needle bearing , inside the cone area , like a minimal amount  of hi temp grease , after a wipe out of what's there ,  a polyurea rated grease  , anti sling would also minimize any slinging , up to clutch face , avoid that . outer bearing is sealed , available at auto parts , for a match up . do you just slam  the PTO lever  forward  ?  or engage it slowly ? typically , belt squealing  is  resistance to rotation , might also have to adjust your  lever on threaded end , for smoother / easier engagement . think your maintenance  , is at the adjustment / trial stage . lubricate the trunnion  threaded rod area , and adjust for smoothest , engagement . pete     

No I don't slam the PTO lever but I do sometimes engage when idle is faster and I notice if I don't if does better. Thanks for your advice.

[peter lena 8,612]

@heysavoy , morning , often refer to , what regularly works , have a regular start stop procedure , letting me verify and  retain , total operational , start . use.  tank top off , STA BIL , fuel treatment , check gear oil , dipstick, oil color , that way , if there is anything , off that check , its corrected . minimize  issues , makes things out of sync , a go to fix . just my regular , run mode, Pete   

[heysavoy 16]

1 hour ago, peter lena said:

@heysavoy , morning , often refer to , what regularly works , have a regular start stop procedure , letting me verify and  retain , total operational , start . use.  tank top off , STA BIL , fuel treatment , check gear oil , dipstick, oil color , that way , if there is anything , off that check , its corrected . minimize  issues , makes things out of sync , a go to fix . just my regular , run mode, Pete   

 

BTW ... what / where is the "Mule Drive Bearing"? 😄

 

[peter lena 8,612]

@heysavoy  there is not one  , but 6 related bearings , the actual lower belt driven area , has 2 , on each pulley , the V  pulley    and the flat pulley , they are sealed , but can be easily serviced , with a hi temp / stress grease , careful removal of the wide side shields, with a small putty knife or flat pocket screwdriver , if you have the tiny space side wall access , pulley , might consider getting the  wide side shield type , they fail , whine with noise , from lubricant failure . other 2 are in the PTO cone , inner needle / outer sealed . personal choice is the easily removed grease shields , for a re grease , also lay out what ever you do , so you can replace , EXACTLY  AS REMOVED . spacers on mule shaft , want to be exactly reinstalled , sounds more complicated than it is , done all of , drives over , Pete     

[heysavoy 16]

4 hours ago, peter lena said:

@heysavoy  there is not one  , but 6 related bearings , the actual lower belt driven area , has 2 , on each pulley , the V  pulley    and the flat pulley , they are sealed , but can be easily serviced , with a hi temp / stress grease , careful removal of the wide side shields, with a small putty knife or flat pocket screwdriver , if you have the tiny space side wall access , pulley , might consider getting the  wide side shield type , they fail , whine with noise , from lubricant failure . other 2 are in the PTO cone , inner needle / outer sealed . personal choice is the easily removed grease shields , for a re grease , also lay out what ever you do , so you can replace , EXACTLY  AS REMOVED . spacers on mule shaft , want to be exactly reinstalled , sounds more complicated than it is , done all of , drives over , Pete     

 

Great info!  I believe the squeaky noise is actually coming from the PTO brake vs the PTO itself. Any idea how tight it should be against the PTO bell?

[peter lena 8,612]

@heysavoy . lots of pro / con on that brake / drag , personally , since doing a re lube change out , I have removed  the 3, I  have , the  PTO cone spindle bell , spins with total / quiet ease . just having a pad dragging on that  ,bell made no sense to me . especially with the typical , added  rotational drag , of an attachment . you can  easily retain it , would back it off , rather have it free and easy , quiet , Pete    

[lynnmor 7,305]

You put a .012” feeler gauge between the brake pad and the PTO surface and engage the clutch.  Now adjust the brake till it just snugs on the feeler.  Expect to make a number of attempts till you get it right with the bolts tightened.

 

The purpose of the brake is to stop rotation of the attachments for safety reasons.

Edited January 2 by lynnmor

[Handy Don 12,214]

20 hours ago, lynnmor said:

You put a .012” feeler gauge between the brake pad and the PTO surface and engage the clutch.  Now adjust the brake till it just snugs on the feeler.  Expect to make a number of attempts till you get it right with the bolts tightened.

 

The purpose of the brake is to stop rotation of the attachments for safety reasons.

Very important to me to have implements stop spinning. You can often pull the PTO lever backward to apply some extra braking!