Tow OUT and tie rods??

[ebinmaine 67,519]

Hi folks. 

 

Why is it that the tractors in the 80s (or others??)  have such a HUGE amount of TOW OUT??

 

This Workhorse is pointing two distinct directions at all times.  

 

 

Please correct me if I'm mistaken here...

Are the front axles and tie rods not interchangeable on ALL Horses from around 1964 or 5 to the 300/400 series?

 

Did something change like the system linkage points?

 

 

Also, does it REALLY matter if the tractor has tow OUT?

 

Did Wheelhorse engineers know something we don't about low speed travel?

 

[lynnmor 7,307]

Pull the tires towards each other and then push them apart, that is the amount of wear.  Push hard to gather all of the play from wheel bearings, spindles and tie rod ends.

 

I would think that the specifications call for some toe in, at least in the manuals I read.

 

Having correct alignment will make for a better driving experience.

[ri702bill 8,324]

2 minutes ago, lynnmor said:

Pull the tires towards each other and then push them apart, that is the amount of wear.  Push hard to gather all of the play from wheel bearings, spindles and tie rod ends.

 

I would think that the specifications call for some toe in, at least in the manuals I read.

 

I agree - the "natural" forward motion will make the wheels go to a toe out condition - with steering wear. All the more justification for adjustable Heim Joint tierods........

[ebinmaine 67,519]

8 minutes ago, lynnmor said:

that is the amount of wear.

Funny thing is we did that and it was minimal.  

 

I wondered if one of the spindles was broken in the past and welded incorrectly.  

 

[lynnmor 7,307]

4 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

Funny thing is we did that and it was minimal.  

 

I wondered if one of the spindles was broken in the past and welded incorrectly.  

 

Wheel Horse actually did weld some steering components wrong, anything is possible.

[Handy Don 12,232]

8 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

Funny thing is we did that and it was minimal.  

 

I wondered if one of the spindles was broken in the past and welded incorrectly.  

 

Our 312-H was a bear to steer. When we had the spindles out preparing to mill the axle to accommodate thrust bearings, we discovered that the steering arm on one spindle was bent--quite a bit!  

We concluded that a PO must have hit something with one wheel as it created a substantial toe-out. We further realized that it’d be pretty easy to bang one wheel and not really notice the effect right away.

Fixed spindle, added thrust bearings, and installed adjustable tie rods and the thing is vastly easier to steer.

Edited November 23, 2023 by Handy Don

[ebinmaine 67,519]

Found the makins' for a nice adjustable set.  

 

Nice to have a home shop Parts Department.  

 

 

 

[kpinnc 12,064]

Every tractor I've seen from 74 and up seems to have some tow out.

 

I hadn't given the "hit something and bent one" much thought, and assumed it was made with a little that got worse with wear.

 

But I agree- heim joints or some adjustability is a must. That along with proper tire pressure sure makes for easier steering. 

[Wishin4a416 2,191]

They steer so much easier with about a 1/4 inch toe in. I stocked up on adjustable tie rods at the big show about 5 years ago.

[ri702bill 8,324]

35 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

Parts Department.  

 

Isn't that the Parts DE-Partment???

[Horse Newbie 7,070]

Toe-in is tires closer together in front right ?

[ebinmaine 67,519]

31 minutes ago, Horse Newbie said:

Toe-in is tires closer together in front right ?

Yepp

[kpinnc 12,064]

Come to think of it, I'd wager that wheelies bend the knuckles just enough that the camber makes them appear toed out. My 701 has it really bad, and the single tie rod design has no slop. 

[Retired Wrencher 5,459]

14 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

Found the makins' for a nice adjustable set.  

 

Nice to have a home shop Parts Department.  

 

 

 

That is the way to go when the originals wear out Eric. Easy to install.

[Racinbob 11,081]

I'm thinking that most of the time the toe out is caused by wear and the non adjustable tie rods. When I got my 76 B-160 back it was a bear to steer. Part of the problem was that one of the tie rods was installed incorrectly. Another was severe toe out. Nothing is mentioned about any alignment adjustment most likely because the rods weren't adjustable. I made new rods and ser the alignment to slightly tor in. It was a dramatic improvment. My 05 Classic has adjustable rods. The owners manual specifically states 1/8"-1/4" toe in. 

[ebinmaine 67,519]

I did find that this tractor had a bent spindle on the right side.  

A pipe wrench and a twist fixed that. 

 

I didn't remove the spindles to check anything out but I believe there's a real possibility that the left spindle is welded incorrectly.  

That tie rod is a bit longer than the other.  

 

[peter lena 8,631]

@kpinnc agree with you on a of number  of steering  details , have HEIM  JOINTS  on my rod ends , for years , also have them on related linkage points , clutch rod , brake connection , easy to  DIE NUT a round rod for connection threading . also washer up the front wheels , for a firmer , wheel track , prevents "  side to side shucking " .  want to stop " wheelies ?  entire clutch lever / rod set up , lubrication detailing , make the rust run out , pete

[peter lena 8,631]

@ebinmaine  have a good turkey day  ?  am often  amazed  , at related horse issues that are not addressed until , total failure . regularly look over everything to see how its working / holding up . often find a connection ,of any kind that  could use an improvement , of function . then change it , thank you , for being you , pete 

[peter lena 8,631]

@kpinnc  sold a used horse , this past summer , guy got on it , and mentioned that anything he touched or attempted to move ,  was broken ? turned out that he was so used to frozen / solid rust , drag / resistance , he was fighting anything he wanted to do ! ,I  got on it , started it up , he really liked that  !  wow what a concept  ! emphasized  smooth easy clutch , no binding , smooth easy engagement , steering moved easily too ! lights worked ! PTO worked easily ! what have I done ?    showed him how things worked , then , walked beside him , as he did the same thing , neglect is easy , spent about 3 weeks on that unit , recovering it . like night / day , sold the rear bagger for parts , regular stuff for me . Pete

[JoeM 7,874]

I've had a couple machines set up just right, very little play, toe in good, tie rods good and still seem to steer a little wonky. Most noticeable on the asphalt driveway at higher speeds. I put on new tires and all was good. 

I do know if you toe in too much they drive like a teenager walking in very tight shoes. I like to set them to the 1/8 side in toe. 

Just cutting grass at slow speeds it makes little difference, I make a lot of turns. If I had long areas, vast flats or meadows it would probably be more noticeable.

[Bill D 1,922]

4 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

I did find that this tractor had a bent spindle on the right side.  

A pipe wrench and a twist fixed that. 

 

I didn't remove the spindles to check anything out but I believe there's a real possibility that the left spindle is welded incorrectly.  

That tie rod is a bit longer than the other.  

 

Consider changing the spindles on that machine to ones with cotter pins or bolts.  I personally hate the C clip axles.  Had a wheel come off once.  I'll never use them again.

[ebinmaine 67,519]

48 minutes ago, Bill D said:

Consider changing the spindles on that machine to ones with cotter pins or bolts.  I personally hate the C clip axles.  Had a wheel come off once.  I'll never use them again.

 

I agree. 

I've had that happen.  

 

That'll be up to the new owners.  

 

 

[Handy Don 12,232]

8 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

I didn't remove the spindles to check anything out but I believe there's a real possibility that the left spindle is welded incorrectly.  

Since you have a few spindles nearby, you can do some comparisons. I agree that wear is the likeliest source of moderate toe-out but, as I mentioned earlier, I was totally not expecting to find a steering arm bent both laterally and vertically so it’s worth a few minutes to give that a look. Had I simply used the adjustable tie rods to “fix” it, the steering would still not have had the correct geometry. The steering arm should be 90º from the axle and parallel to the ground.

[ebinmaine 67,519]

39 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

correct geometry. The steering arm should be 90º from the axle and parallel to the ground

 

 

39 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

Since you have a few spindles nearby, you can do some comparisons

 

Going strictly by eye the left side looks pretty close.  

I can say for sure the right side was not. That one had a twist strong enough that I couldn't get the impact driver on the lower outer nut without hitting the tire. 

 

It's not off by a country mile. But the left tie rod is a little longer than the right in order to get the wheels to a decent position.  

 

While I agree I'm principle that the correct steering geometry is important, this particular tractor is going to work on a hillside where it won't see many flat straight spots.   The steering system will be in a nearly  constant state of correction and return.  

[kpinnc 12,064]

10 hours ago, peter lena said:

@kpinnc  sold a used horse , this past summer , guy got on it , and mentioned that anything he touched or attempted to move ,  was broken ? turned out that he was so used to frozen / solid rust , drag / resistance , he was fighting anything he wanted to do !

 

Agreed Pete. Funny how that works!