Blew up my Wheel Horse - help!

[goldeagle 31]

Hopefully 'blew up' is an exaggeration but it did go bang and stopped working.

 

I've only had my C-165 for a few weeks. I have been out on my field with the tiller attachment, rotovating some ploughed soil. Have a feeling I was probably putting the engine under a lot of strain using the tiller in wet soil, getting caked in mud. It had been doing fine for several hours, and then after a rest I started again, and just as I lowered the tiller and went to set off, there was a loud BANG from the engine, it looked like something shot out of the engine/exhaust on the left side (maybe a spark/flame??) and the engine died.

 

Now, when I turn the ignition the engine fan turns but it won't properly 'start' (sorry, don't know the technical terms). It's almost like gas isn't getting to the engine or something.

 

Anyway, not knowing anything about these tractors I was hoping some of you could give me your opinion:

 

1. What am I likely to have done to the engine?

2. Is it likely to be repairable or have I destroyed it?

3. Any tips on what I should look at or test to confirm the issue?

 

Thanks in advance

[Achto 27,565]

7 minutes ago, goldeagle said:

1. What am I likely to have done to the engine?

2. Is it likely to be repairable or have I destroyed it?

3. Any tips on what I should look at or test to confirm the issue?

 

The fact that you didn't say anything about a puddle of oil under it is a good sign. This indicates that there is not a hole in the block at least.

First thing I would do is pull the spark plug out, hold your finger tight over the plug hole & spin the engine over using the starter. You should feel air pressure trying to get past your finger. If you do not feel any pressure, then you will have to disassemble the engine to see what happened inside.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Achto

[JoeM 7,873]

Could be something a simple as the spark plug. Sure sounds like it had a miss fire and loaded up the muffler with fuel and re-lite. If it has compression might want to throw a new plug in and give r a try

[goldeagle 31]

53 minutes ago, Achto said:

 

The fact that you didn't say anything about a puddle of oil under it is a good sign. This indicates that there is not a hole in the block at least.

First thing I would do is pull the spark plug out, hold your finger tight over the plug hole & spin the engine over using the starter. You should feel air pressure trying to get past your finger. If you do not feel any pressure, then you will have to disassemble the engine to see what happened inside.

 

Have to say I never checked for a puddle of oil but I will do!

I will check as you suggest, will have a look in the manual to work out where the spark plug is 

 

6 minutes ago, JoeM said:

Could be something a simple as the spark plug. Sure sounds like it had a miss fire and loaded up the muffler with fuel and re-lite. If it has compression might want to throw a new plug in and give r a try

 

I hope that is all it is! I don't have a spare but might try the spark plug from my other wheel horse assuming it is an easy swap

[Achto 27,565]

2 hours ago, goldeagle said:

I don't have a spare but might try the spark plug from my other wheel horse assuming it is an easy swap

 

10hp - 16hp Kohler should all use the same spark plug. The Champion plug number is H10C  

 

Easy change, the spark plug is right on top of the engine.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Achto

[goldeagle 31]

Unfortunately it isn't the spark plug. Swapped it out and no difference. I also can't feel any pressure at the spark plug hole, checked my other tractor to make sure I knew what I was looking for, definitely no air pressure on the broken one.

 

So do i need to open the engine up? Any tips on how to go about this?

 

Thanks

[rmaynard 15,436]

 

On 11/20/2023 at 4:13 PM, goldeagle said:

I will check as you suggest, will have a look in the manual to work out where the spark plug is 

 

I'm hoping that by the smiley that you are just joking about finding the spark plug. Otherwise you are in a heap of trouble. Sounds like you broke a connecting rod.

[goldeagle 31]

12 minutes ago, rmaynard said:

 

 

I'm hoping that by the smiley that you are just joking about finding the spark plug. Otherwise you are in a heap of trouble. Sounds like you broke a connecting rod.

Well, I worked put where the spark plug was easily enough. Broken connecting rod doesn't sound good, is that fixable?

[Jon Paulsen 290]

Last connecting rod I did cost about 80 US pesos for the part. Then add a gasket set. That was for a very common B&S 12 HP. Then while you have it apart, it's a good time to adjust valve lash and look it all over. I guess it took me a week to do it (I continued my day job during the process). Difficulty level, on a scale of 1 to 10, I'd give it a 7. 

 

For tools, mostly common hand tools, but you need either a ring compressor or some good strong zip/cable ties to hold the rings in while re-inserting the piston. A small torque wrench is not a requirement, but is good so you get the torque right and don't break a bolt. I used one. 

Edited November 25, 2023 by Jon Paulsen

[953 nut 55,193]

54 minutes ago, goldeagle said:

Well, I worked put where the spark plug was easily enough. Broken connecting rod doesn't sound good, is that fixable?

Anything is fixable. Is it an easy inexpensive fix,            that depends on the internal damage done and your mechanical ability. You can start by removing the engine from the tractor, removing the cylinder head and removing the oil pan to see what damage has been done.

When a connecting rod breaks it can damage other internal parts and small bits of metal will find their way into every corner of the engine. It should be completely disassembled, cleaned and checked over by a small engine shop to see if the cylinder needs to be machined. 

[peter lena 8,610]

@goldeagle  did you ever check the new to you unit , for operational status ?  like check / change the oils ? most of the used anything I have seen , are seriously lacking in any form of upkeep / maintenance. that ground engagement , is some serious , stress on a unit . if you luck out , and find a relatively easy fix / repair . go back to square 1 and give this a total check over , change out / replace all lubricant's , verify how things are working . typically when I pick one up , its weeks before , its back to a running / functional state . my engine run in on  a separate gallon of heavily treated fuel . cleans , and allows a , slower time frame , to see what's going on , start / stop / adjust / clean / improve / hot oil drain flush , etc. . drop carb bowl ?  have any experienced similar tractor owners  in your area ?  hope it works out for you . pete   

[c-series don 8,689]

I’d start by removing the head and then cranking it over to see if the piston and valves are moving. No compression could be a valve stuck open. However I don’t think a valve sticking would make a banging sound. If the piston is not moving while cranking, then as the others said you have to tear it down and inspect. If no internal damage is done other than a broken connecting rod then it’s a pretty easy fix. By the looks of your tractor it is well worth fixing. 

[goldeagle 31]

Thanks all for the advice. I need to spend some time looking at the engine manual and probably youtube (and this forum) and work out how to get started on taking the engine apart - no experience with engines (tractor or otherwise) but I'm fairly handy and a background in engineering (unfortunately only electrical!) so hopefully I can get somewhere with it. Luckily I have a second C165 so I will have to be extra careful to make sure I don't damage that one. Will report back when I find out what the issue is.

[Razorback 1,035]

I would bet you broke a connecting rod. I had one let loose in my Cub Cadet 123 earlier this spring. Thank God for cast iron engine cases! I found this guy very helpful in showing how to rebuild a Kohler engine.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGK5kBdd4xk&list=PLRaH_6pemQndw_uoPSgWZjQdfaIwyszbR    this is one of several videos in his series.... the others should be easy to find on YouTube.

On edit, here is a better link: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRaH_6pemQndw_uoPSgWZjQdfaIwyszbR

Edited November 25, 2023 by Razorback

[oliver2-44 9,739]

When you remove the head bolts first tighten them slightly, then loosen a little, spray them with penetrant, tighten, loosen, spray, repeat, repeat. The bolts on either side of the exhaust can be stuck from the heat and you don’t want to break one. If they don’t move with force equal to the other ones don’t force them, come back here for more guidance. 

[RED-Z06 2,221]

If the cam isnt wrecked, bottom of the cylinder isn't wrecked, and there's no holes in the block...you're main issue is likely to be melted aluminum on the crank journal.  But getting it apart is the first step

[goldeagle 31]

I thought I would report back and get some advice before I do anything else.

 

I removed the head and found a small screw embedded in the underside. One of the valves (if that is the correct term) is bent. It looks like somehow a screw has ended up in the head, the valve has hit it embedding it in the head, and breaking/bending the valve.

 

Has anyone seen this before?

 

I turned the engine by hand and the large piston moves up and down. One of the valves also moves up and down but the bent one does nothing.

 

What should be my next step to check? Do I have to remove the entire engine or can I work on it whilst still fitted to the tractor?

 

 

 

[RED-Z06 2,221]

Does the exhaust valve tap back down at all?

[goldeagle 31]

30 minutes ago, RED-Z06 said:

Does the exhaust valve tap back down at all?

 

not really, that picture isn't very good - the shaft seems to be bent (or else something has happened at the far end), the valve top is actually only lifted up on one side, the other side is actually already touching the engine, so can't move down any further. When I turn the engine, at a certain point the exhaust valve does loosen enough that I can wiggle it a bit and it will rotate, but that is all

[RED-Z06 2,221]

24 minutes ago, goldeagle said:

 

not really, that picture isn't very good - the shaft seems to be bent (or else something has happened at the far end), the valve top is actually only lifted up on one side, the other side is actually already touching the engine, so can't move down any further. When I turn the engine, at a certain point the exhaust valve does loosen enough that I can wiggle it a bit and it will rotate, but that is all

Oh okay then you just need a valve and lap it in to the old seat if its still in good shape.

 

Check your carb, filter base for missing hardware

Edited December 10, 2023 by RED-Z06

[oliver2-44 9,739]

You should not need to pull the engine. To make it easy to work on I would remove the hood. Then pull the carburetor and the cover below it to get to the valve springs. You will need a small engine valve compressor to remove the valve. 

[kpinnc 12,007]

15 hours ago, goldeagle said:

Has anyone seen this before?

 

Yes. This is the reason that both choke and throttle plates use brass screws. I had one get sucked into the engine, and brass screws just flatten out- though they definitely make some noise until you shut the engine off. 

 

Looks like you lost one of the screws from the air filter back plate. Sorry @RED-Z06 already mentioned it and I didn't see that.

 

Congrats on minimal damage. Could've been really bad!

Edited December 11, 2023 by kpinnc

[goldeagle 31]

1 hour ago, kpinnc said:

 

Yes. This is the reason that both choke and throttle plates use brass screws. I had one get sucked into the engine, and brass screws just flatten out- though they definitely make some noise until you shut the engine off. 

 

Looks like you lost one of the screws from the air filter back plate. Sorry @RED-Z06 already mentioned it and I didn't see that.

 

Congrats on minimal damage. Could've been really bad!

 

Thanks that's what I was wondering where the screw could have come from. I was surprised it looked so clean and shiny, no corrosion or oil on it. Is that the air filter on the carburetor or somewhere else (sorry still finding my way around the engine and part names).

 

Hopefully it is just minimal damage as you say. I will check carb and also get access to valve springs and see how it is looking.

[953 nut 55,193]

Portions of section nine and ten of this manual will guide you through the process of removing and installing a valve.

 

[goldeagle 31]

Managed to get access to the valve springs today, it looks ok from what I can tell. As expected, the exhaust valve is stuck and doesn't raise/lower properly. I will order an exhaust valve (as well as some new gaskets) so that I can swap it out. I just need to work out how to replace a valve now! Added a better photo of the bent valve top and also a link below to a video of the valves whilst I am hand-cranking the engine