Shop heaters. One big or 3 small?

[Handy Don 12,227]

55 minutes ago, wallfish said:

Unvented propane heaters will add lots of humidity

 

Good reminder. I’ve got an operable window I’d planned to crack open for ventilation and oxygen!

[WHX?? 48,815]

OK.. I followed this thread long enough to throw my hat in the ring. 

I only been installing heat in buildings like this professionally for only 40 years. Learned a few things but forgot a few too...

First off anyone tries to heat a shed like this with NO insulation lemme know ... I be the first one to collect them Washington's flying out the doors. 

Second thing is don't even think about electric heat. Yah them heaters cheap and install cheap and that's what sucks most idiots in at first but bend over when that bill comes. For the privvy ok... not for a structure as this. Not to mention a 200 Amp service is the minimum required. 

Only two ways electric heat is affordable 

1) You are super insuated.

2) You live next to the Hoover dam and are illegally tapped into their power grid. 

Can't count the times I went on a estimate where the customer had electric and tired of taking it in the shorts. 

Sounds like your on this property for the long haul EB ... so do it once and do it right. 

 

My first choice would be a 90+ efficiency furnace. Sealed combustion and propane fired. 

Yah getting a tank set and costs but again in it for the long haul? 

 

NFPA 54 and propane regulations that follow say that a 120 gallon or less tank can be set next to the building... over that 10 feet away. We know you got the equipment to make that happen.

 

Second choice and probably the best would be a heater such as Bob Maynard recently installed.  50- 80k btu range. 

I've been known to hold up my thumb and say yah that size looks right. Later years I learned how to properly crunch the numbers.  

Three heaters? Yer on crack. Get it insulated first. Didn’t I mention that? I don't care who's holding the purse strings. Then we can talk about r values and such nonsense. 

 

Third choice would be a pellet stove. I know I know but like gays in the military don't ask don't tell. I pay an extra 40 clams insurance for having solid fuel in my shop. Well worth it. 

First things first EB ... insulate it first! I take that back... weather seal first. Big difference it those two coins. 

Edited November 15, 2023 by WHX??

[ebinmaine 67,497]

6 hours ago, WHX?? said:

Can't count the times I went on a estimate where the customer had electric and tired of taking it in the shorts. 

 

 

 

 

Not the case here Jimbo.  

 

 

7 hours ago, WHX?? said:

NFPA 54 and propane regulations that follow say that a 120 gallon or less tank can be set next to the building... over that 10 feet away. 

 

That is NOT what I've been told by BOTH of the propane companies I can use. Yes both. As in two. I have only two that deliver here. 

 

Neither one will set the tank AT this building. 

 

7 hours ago, WHX?? said:

We know you got the equipment to make that happen.

 

Unless I have a #40,000 plus excavator I don't know about that is just not correct.  

 

 

Absolutely agreed that we should insulate. 

And again....

We will. In time. 

We NEED a way to at least break the chill for the winter while we work in the building doing things like... insulation. And tractors. And cars. Etc.  

Doesn't matter if it's a money loss. 

We simply do not have several thousand dollars laying around to hire an insulation company... Even if we could get one here in the next few months. That's unlikely too.  Have you heard about the construction market in Maine?

 

 

Out there in the Midwest the pricing must be VERY different for propane vs electric. 

Here in Maine it's MORE expensive by the hour to heat a PART TIME building with propane. If it were a full time shop or constant heat that might be different.  

There's just no way in hades I'd spend $8K-$12K installing propane then spend more per hour to use it. 

 

 

7 hours ago, WHX?? said:

I pay an extra 40 clams insurance for having solid fuel in my shop. Well worth it.

 

I agree in principle but we CAN'T get insurance. Period.  

It isn't legal. 

 

We're looking at ways to use the wood we have on site but that'll be cost prohibitive as well.  

 

[oliver2-44 9,750]

On 11/15/2023 at 3:58 AM, ebinmaine said:

We're looking at ways to use the wood we have on site but that'll be cost prohibitive as well.  

Wood fired boiler in a nearby shed with fan forced radiant heaters in shop.
PS  Remember I’m from down south and know almost nothing about residential boilers.  

[ebinmaine 67,497]

8 hours ago, oliver2-44 said:

Wood fired boiler in a nearby shed with fan forced radiant heaters in shop.
PS  Remember I’m from down south and know almost nothing about residential boilers.  

The idea is sound but it all goes back to cost and codes. 

 

A wood boiler has to be 75 from any building here. 

Without spending INCREDIBLE thousands that can't happen. 

Because of the terrain and long distances for ditches we'd EASILY spend $25K-$40K.  

 

 

[ebinmaine 67,497]

To update all you fine folks on what's "cooking". 

 

FIRST. Thank you for all the input.  As always, Trina and I have learned a few things and we REALLY appreciate the knowledge base here on Redsquare.  

 

I've spoken to the insurance company and State Fire Marshal's office again. 

Wood stove is, for now, not happening.  

Its neither insurable nor (more importantly) legal. No way around it.  There's NO OPTION for "extra coverage" or "additional clauses" or even changing insurance companies altogether.  It can't be insured here. 

Any losses caused by a solid fuel fire would be OUR responsibility.  A chance we will not take. 

 

 

I called our Electrician and consulted some others in HVAC locally.  

 

Even our own Electrician who we consider a friend doesn't recommend a full time electric heat system - but he agrees after consultation that the ONLY viable option here is to use electric heat.  

 

There are several reasons.  

1.  Propane (or any other fuel) can't be bought an installed without spending a MINIMUM of $8K to  $10K.  Note that's a MINIMUM.  

 

Excavation ALONE would be somewhere between $2,000 - $3,500. MINIMUM.  If we hit ledge that price goes up another $4,000 - instantly.  We would need a 4 ft deep ditch approximately 45 to 55 ft long. Several loads of fill to create an area for the tank(s). Then the concrete work.  

 

2.  Remember folks, we aren't trying to keep a constant 70⁰ out there. 

We might be out in the workshop all day one day and not even open the doors for a week. 

 

3. Propane is expensive in this area. I couldn't get an accurate dollar amount to compare propane heat to electric heat overall because the propane supplier doesn't know how much we would use per hour. 

Generic numbers in this area put propane 10% to 50%  less expensive than electric in OPERATING costs. But the INITIAL costs are VASTLY higher. 

 

Long term TOTAL cost comparison just doesn't add up in favor of anything but electric heat.  

Even if we could get the optimum and nearly unobtainable 50% operational cost reduction from propane, it would take us two decades or more to recover the difference between electricity and propane. 

 

 

I do agree we should upgrade to 200 amp service.  

I don't have pricing for that yet. 2 years ago it would have been a few hundred more if it was an option.  I imagine it could be done sometime next spring for less than a thousand.  

 

 

[SylvanLakeWH 25,557]

Sounds like a plan! 

[Ed Kennell 38,174]

1 hour ago, ebinmaine said:

 

 

I've spoken to the insurance company and State Fire Marshal's office again. 

Wood stove is neither insurable nor (more importantly) legal. No way around it.

So much for the pioneering in the North Woods.   

[ebinmaine 67,497]

1 minute ago, Ed Kennell said:

So much for the pioneering in the North Woods.   

 

Yepp. 

 

It's Federal Code that they can't be used but it's enforced heavily here. 

Probably because one too many "incidents" occured.  

 

[lynnmor 7,306]

19 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

 

Yepp. 

 

It's Federal Code that they can't be used but it's enforced heavily here. 

Probably because one too many "incidents" occured.  

 

I know there are standards for emissions but solid fuel stoves and furnaces are installed almost everywhere.  In my case, I use a wood/coal furnace but if I need to replace it the new model is rated for coal only even though it is exactly the same, just to keep the useless happy.

 

I guess a heat pump is out of the question due to cost and the low temperatures in your area.  I just installed a high efficiency unit that has resistance heat backup below outside temperatures of 11 degrees.

[Racinbob 11,081]

I've had a question ever since you first said wood is out. Aren't you heating your house with wood?

 

It surprises me that they are so strict there. There are 100's of homes around here hearing with wood. We had a wood stove but took it out. Here's an ironic one. Our nearest neighbor had one of those remote wood burners that used a closed water circulating system to move the heat into the house. About a year ago we heard firetrucks come close. We looked out and saw the flames and I went over there. His wood burner house was in flames. I simply asked him if he had set his thermostat  up too high. Better that little building than the house. 

 

It was clear from the beginning that your only real choice was electricity. As I said, I like it in some cases. Safe, clean and in some cases, practical. And it's not cheap. It's easy to figure the amount of propane you would based on BTU per hour (match the electric BTU to compare) but it's clearly not an option for you. So it's electric. I'll say it again, it wouldn't be a bad choice based on what you're wanting to do. 

 

I'm glad to hear that your electrician said you need a 200 amp service. If he would have said anything else I'd say get a different electrician. I don't need to tell you how much cheaper it would have been to just put a 200 in at the start. I  have no clue about the layout of your barn interior. If  feasible you could isolate part of it, insulate that part and use one heater to start. That might get you through this winter. 

[ebinmaine 67,497]

1 hour ago, lynnmor said:

heat pump

Heat pump was a consideration but all the folks around here that use one lose satisfaction below about 15⁰ - 20⁰ F. 

We hit that quite often anytime from October to February.  

This morning for example was at least the third time in a few weeks it was below 20⁰. Well before the supposed start of winter. 

A supplemental heat supply is necessary at that point. 

 

[ebinmaine 67,497]

24 minutes ago, Racinbob said:

I've had a question ever since you first said wood is out. Aren't you heating your house with wood?

The key word is house. 

Yes. We heat our house with two wood stoves. 

 

The reason a solid fuel appliance isn't allowed in the barn is because of "possibility of proximity to gasoline or other flammable fumes."

 

 

[wh500special 2,183]

55 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

The key word is house... 

 

The reason a solid fuel appliance isn't allowed in the barn is because of "possibility of proximity to gasoline or other flammable fumes."

 

 

 

Put the tractors in the house.

 

Problem solved. 

 

Electric heat has its place, and your application is clearly one of them.  Have your electrician verify things, but I think you have enough power to get you by at least for a while before you'd NEED to upgrade the service.  You just need to be aware of your electrical demands to avoid overwhelming the system in the event you want to run some other power hog while you're also making heat.  Once you've knocked down the chill with the heaters on high, set them to a lower output to drop the current to something more relaxed.

 

And to help stay warm in the shop, just work faster!

 

Steve

[The Freightliner Guy 1,327]

3 small would e handy as you can bring one where you are working and have the other two heating up the other areas you need