Hours on M12 of 312-8

[CCW 1,298]

My 87 312-8 has just over 1700 hours on it.  I was told that 1500 hours is more that I should expect a Kohler M12.  The engine still starts right up, but now smokes.  Am I running on borrowed time with this engine?  Trying to decide if I should replace it before it dies. Because of the hours I have decided not to have it rebuilt. 

[ebinmaine 67,633]

 

3 minutes ago, CCW said:

Because of the hours I have decided not to have it rebuilt. 

 

What's the reason there? 

 

If you have a good usable Machine Shop getting it rebuilt is EXACTLY what I'd do.  

 

 

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, CCW said:

now smokes.  Am I running on borrowed time with this engine? 

 

Likely... But it's a tough call at this point how long it'll last.  

If that's a working tractor you'll have less time than a strict show cruiser.  

 

 

[pfrederi 17,741]

If you do not want to overhaul it then run it till it dies.  Smokes all the time or just on start up??

[CCW 1,298]

13 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

What's the reason there? 

 

If you have a good usable Machine Shop getting it rebuilt is EXACTLY what I'd do.  

 

 

After speaking with a power equipment shop and to a member here on RS that rebuilds these it will cost approximately $1200 to have it done.  This is my one and only and it is a working rig. 

 

5 minutes ago, pfrederi said:

If you do not want to overhaul it then run it till it dies.  Smokes all the time or just on start up??

 

Smokes the most on startup.  

 

[leabassett@sbcglobal.net 149]

$1200 is a lot cheaper than a new tractor. When rebuilt it will probably out last you.

[pfrederi 17,741]

$1200 is ludicrous for a single Magnum (same internals a K-series and widely available parts)  I had a 2 cylinder Magnum 18 done (hard to find parts) and with all the parts was less than 900.  Check with  @richmondred01 here he rebuild singles and I am sure it will be a lot less.

 

 

[ebinmaine 67,633]

23 minutes ago, CCW said:

 

After speaking with a power equipment shop and to a member here on RS that rebuilds these it will cost approximately $1200 to have it done.  This is my one and only and it is a working rig. 

 

 

I can see your logic there.  

 

 

But this is true:

11 minutes ago, leabassett@sbcglobal.net said:

$1200 is a lot cheaper than a new tractor. When rebuilt it will probably out last you.

 

 

Was it me I'd consider having a spare engine handy and run the old one awhile. 

 

[richmondred01 2,237]

Just now, ebinmaine said:

 

I can see your logic there.  

 

 

But this is true:

 

 

Was it me I'd consider having a spare engine handy and run the old one awhile.

 

3 minutes ago, pfrederi said:

$1200 is ludicrous for a single Magnum (same internals a K-series and widely available parts)  I had a 2 cylinder Magnum 18 done (hard to find parts) and with all the parts was less than 900.  Check with  @richmondred01 here he rebuild singles and I am sure it will be a lot less.

 

 

Yep I still do them. Much less expensive.

PM me if interested with your number and I’ll give you a call

[953 nut 55,323]

2 hours ago, CCW said:

Smokes the most on startup.

 

2 hours ago, CCW said:

87 312-8 has just over 1700 hours on it

A little smoke on start-up isn't a big deal. 1700 hours in thirty six years is about fifty hours a year so that has been working well for you, keep an eye on the engine oli and keep on running it.       

[Achto 27,609]

I realize that there are labor cost involved with having some one else rebuild your engine but $1200 seems a little steep. If you think that you could rebuild it your self you could save a quite a bit of money. I usually shell out just under $200 for machining, That is boring out the cylinder & turning the crank shaft down. Then there is the price of the kit, here is an after market kit.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/142934773165?chn=ps&var=441909846747&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=441909846747_142934773165&targetid=1491516879573&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9019452&poi=&campaignid=20398540558&mkgroupid=150863890759&rlsatarget=pla-1491516879573&abcId=9317246&merchantid=6413034&gclid=CjwKCAjwkY2qBhBDEiwAoQXK5cSIEWfXISgsRbhYpyQM6I5a3ZnSWFx7ozKnAGe42p0_AjGUjATn5RoCfbQQAvD_BwE

 

An OEM kit will be a little over double the price.

 

If it is not some thing that you wish to tackle your self, I would go with @richmondred01

 

Pre 2000 garden tractors were made to last. Post 2000 garden tractors have a life expectancy of 5yrs. 

Edited November 2, 2023 by Achto

[WHX?? 48,832]

3 hours ago, pfrederi said:

If you do not want to overhaul it then run it till it dies.  

I don't know if I agree with that Paul for fear of putting a extra hole in the block.

Yes 1200 goes seem a little pricey but not if you don't have the tools to DIY. I'm sure pro shops get 80 clams and up for shop labor so that adds up quick. 

I have one or four of 8 hp Ks that smoke on start up but goes away when hot. Rings expand and reseal I suppose but always at the back of my mind for a DIY less than 500 build. 

Check oil frequently till you finger it out is my best advice.  

Edited November 2, 2023 by WHX??
Speeling

[WHX?? 48,832]

3 hours ago, CCW said:

This is my one and only

OK here's the problem...you need more tractors...

[moe1965 738]

Just a thought there is a trade school close to where I live and sometimes they are looking for engines for there students to rebuild.  Parts and machineing are usually the cost  don't know if there are any such schools in your area.  Just a thought 

[CCW 1,298]

12 hours ago, pfrederi said:

Check with  @richmondred01 here he rebuild singles and I am sure it will be a lot less.

 

 

9 hours ago, Achto said:

If it is not some thing that you wish to tackle your self, I would go with @richmondred01

 

 

richmondred01 and I have already spoken.  I'm in CT he is in VA.  Adding up his work and my travel expenses the cost would be approaching the $1200 mark.

 

9 hours ago, WHX?? said:

I don't know if I agree with that Paul for fear of putting a extra hole in the block.

Yes 1200 goes seem a little pricey but not if you don't have the tools to DIY. I'm sure pro shops get 80 clams and up for shop labor so that adds up quick. 

I have one or four of 8 hp Ks that smoke on start up but goes away when hot. Rings expand and reseal I suppose but always at the back of my mind for a DIY less than 500 build. 

Check oil frequently till you finger it out is my best advice.  

 

I am not an engine guy and though I could do it myself I have no interest.  I will keep running it and check the oil.

 

9 hours ago, WHX?? said:

OK here's the problem...you need more tractors...

 

If I get more tractors I will be sleeping in the shed with them and the shed is already full.   

 

[JoeM 7,874]

Had one that was well into the 2000's on hours. the guys wife loved just driving around and they had 4 acres. mowed three times a week. he changed the oil like clockwork. it smoked a bit too on start up but was quiet ran good. 

Like they said keep an eye on the oil and listen for that death knock. 

[squonk 41,156]

1 hour ago, CCW said:

 

 

richmondred01 and I have already spoken.  I'm in CT he is in VA.  Adding up his work and my travel expenses the cost would be approaching the $1200 mark.

 

 

 

 

I have gotten 3 engines @richmondred01. 1 used and 2 re-built. 1 of which I sent my worn engine to him. I am in Upstate (Finger Lakes ) NY There are several members from the Virginia area and several members from the CT. area that go to the big show in PA. There is probably someone who can bring an engine to PA and someone else who can bring it from Pa to CT. "The  Big Show Shuttle"  If it can be brought to the show, even I could get it to NY which would be closer. Put an ad in the Hauling Help section of the forum

[richmondred01 2,237]

2 hours ago, CCW said:

 

 

richmondred01 and I have already spoken.  I'm in CT he is in VA.  Adding up his work and my travel expenses the cost would be approaching the $1200 mark.

 

 

I am not an engine guy and though I could do it myself I have no interest.  I will keep running it and check the oil.

 

 

If I get more tractors I will be sleeping in the shed with them and the shed is already full.   

 

Approximately 700-750 for complete engine rebuild. The rest I assume is his travel cost two round trips to deliver and pickup the engine. (Which I can see with gas, tolls and hotel if needed) fastenal to CT is about 125-150 one way) 
I now have several K301 and k321 and an Magum12 and 14 wheel horse spec engines that I will do a long block that includes the head and pan for 800-850 using one of my engines. Bore 85.00, grind crank 75.00 grind valve seats and ream new guides 45.00 that’s right at 200.00. New parts 165.00-250.00, labor 295.00. 
My labor cost of 295.00 hasn’t changed in 5 years. 

Edited November 3, 2023 by richmondred01

[CCW 1,298]

45 minutes ago, richmondred01 said:

Approximately 700-750 for complete engine rebuild. The rest I assume is his travel cost two round trips to deliver and pickup the engine. (Which I can see with gas, tolls and hotel if needed) fastenal to CT is about 125-150 one way) 
I now have several K301 and k321 and an Magum12 and 14 wheel horse spec engines that I will do a long block that includes the head and pan for 800-850 using one of my engines. Bore 85.00, grind crank 75.00 grind valve seats and ream new guides 45.00 that’s right at 200.00. New parts 165.00-250.00, labor 295.00. 
My labor cost of 295.00 hasn’t changed in 5 years. 

 

Yes I remember your price at 700 - 750 and did not mean to imply you were more expensive.  Travel back and forth would definitely be the additional cost.

[richmondred01 2,237]

1 minute ago, CCW said:

 

Yes I remember your price at 700 - 750 and did not mean to imply you were more expensive.  Travel back and forth would definitely be the additional cost.

All good. I just didn’t want people to think I’ve gone crazy with my prices. 
All the best. 

[CCW 1,298]

12 hours ago, moe1965 said:

Just a thought there is a trade school close to where I live and sometimes they are looking for engines for there students to rebuild.  Parts and machineing are usually the cost  don't know if there are any such schools in your area.  Just a thought 

 

Reached out to one and have not heard back so I am not relying on that as a solution.

 

[RED-Z06 2,221]

15 hours ago, Achto said:

I realize that there are labor cost involved with having some one else rebuild your engine but $1200 seems a little steep. If you think that you could rebuild it your self you could save a quite a bit of money. I usually shell out just under $200 for machining, That is boring out the cylinder & turning the crank shaft down. Then there is the price of the kit, here is an after market kit.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/142934773165?chn=ps&var=441909846747&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=441909846747_142934773165&targetid=1491516879573&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9019452&poi=&campaignid=20398540558&mkgroupid=150863890759&rlsatarget=pla-1491516879573&abcId=9317246&merchantid=6413034&gclid=CjwKCAjwkY2qBhBDEiwAoQXK5cSIEWfXISgsRbhYpyQM6I5a3ZnSWFx7ozKnAGe42p0_AjGUjATn5RoCfbQQAvD_BwE

 

An OEM kit will be a little over double the price.

 

If it is not some thing that you wish to tackle your self, I would go with @richmondred01

 

Pre 2000 garden tractors were made to last. Post 2000 garden tractors have a life expectancy of 5yrs. 

I wouldn't clump all the 00+ into that category, there were still exceptionally well built, well powered machines built after 2000...just not necessarily by Toro.  The Craftsman, Husqvarna GT offerings were of inferior quality for sure.  But the Simplicity Legacy, Legacy XL, Deere 4x5 and x475/x575 series were 2500+ hour tractors.  Toro milked the old WH design until there was no interest at all then dumped the brand.

[Wild Bill 633 846]

20 hours ago, RED-Z06 said:

But the Simplicity Legacy, Legacy XL,

And Briggs and Scrap Em just threw up the white flag on Simplicity and Snapper.

[kpinnc 12,096]

On 11/2/2023 at 4:11 PM, CCW said:

I was told that 1500 hours is more that I should expect a Kohler M12. 

 

I would add that whoever told you this is NOT the individual to take advise on these machines again.

 

 

Cast iron Kohler engines were designed for long life, and to be able to rebuild if needed. 

[ebinmaine 67,633]

2 hours ago, kpinnc said:

 

I would add that whoever told you this is NOT the individual to take advise on these machines again.

 

 

Cast iron Kohler engines were designed for long life, and to be able to rebuild if needed. 

 

@CCW I'd second that. In a big way.  

 

 

[CCW 1,298]

Good news.  Talking to my neighbor he gave me a possible rebuilder in the next town.  Keeping my fingers crossed.