Aftermarket "isave" carb info

[ebinmaine 67,636]

Let me just say right up front I've not been a fan of aftermarket carbs from overseas for quite awhile. 

 

Most of you know that. 

 

I've seen at LEAST 5 or 6 bad imported  carbs in person now. 

 

I've tried to be as open minded as possible with the "isave" brand for several reasons.  

I like Norman as a person. 

I REALLY appreciate what he's trying to do for us and old iron in general.  

I really want(ed) to believe the Big Block Kohler replacement carbs would work. 

It's a local company to me.  

 

 

I now have the second carb from isavetractors that's ... "had issues."

 This one has worn out the upper  throttle shaft bore in very short order. 

 

Why? I can only theorize having no knowledge of metallurgy. It seems to be that the aluminum body MAY be softer than OE (?????)

 

It's not repairable because the upper bore step doesn't have a compatible washer to insert and it's actually bored a tiny bit off center.  

 

 

Other things NEED to be noted for someone considering a purchase on a 14 HP or 16 HP.  

 

 

The inside diameter of the center bore is MUCH smaller than the original equipment Kohler #30 carb. 

This means IT IS NOT the universal replacement I was led to believe.  

OE is approximately  .9 inches. 

isavetractors carb is approximately  .75  inches. 

That's a pretty serious difference. 

 

For most daily operations I believe that would be ok. 

For actual "work" perhaps not.  

 

Another thing to be aware of is the fastening method and size of the throttle plate. 

Note the excessive hole for the screw holding the plate to the shaft. 

 

 

 

This apparently caused the original builder to have difficulty aligning the plate to the bore. It was binding.  

Also, the screw is held in only with a lock washer. ... until it isn't.  No Loctite. 

 

 

If you're considering purchasing one of these aftermarket carbs I won't tell you one way or another.  

It's your money. 

It's your tractor. 

 

Just wanted to share my experiences and thoughts.  

 

 

 

[953 nut 55,323]

6 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

The inside diameter of the center bore is MUCH smaller than the original equipment Kohler #30 carb. 

This means IT IS NOT the universal replacement I was led to believe. 

   I bought two of the China junk carbs several years ago on . The body was a #26 (10 to 12 HP) and the main jets were larger than should have been on a # 26, probably for a #30 (14 to 16 HP) 

I put it on a ten HP engine and it ran like junk and couldn't be adjusted. I pulled it apart and used the needle and seat from an old carb as well as the float and it ran well after that. The way it was built the only thing universal was the likelihood that it would operate poorly on any engine it was installed on.

As an aside, KOHLER diesel, gasoline, alternative fuel, and marine engines are made in Mississippi and Wisconsin with parts made in China

Chances are the OEM parts from Kohler are all made in China but quality control is a bit better.

[clueless 3,005]

Their all made overseas, the 20.00 dollar or the 100.00 dollar one including isave are all a crap shoot, you may get one that works good and you may not. They have the specs now and make them fast and cheap, quality and tolerances are not important. If you could find a new OEM Carter or Kohler it will cost you at least a couple of hundred or more dollars. So you just keep buying the cheap ones till you get one that works decent, C'est La Vie in the 21st century.

 

[ebinmaine 67,636]

Just now, clueless said:

Their all made overseas, the 20.00 dollar or the 100.00 dollar one including isave are all a crap shoot, you may get one that works good and you may not. They have the specs now and make them fast and cheap, quality and tolerances are not important. If you could find a new OEM Carter or Kohler it will cost you at least a couple of hundred or more dollars. So you just keep buying the cheap ones till you get one that works decent, C'est La Vie in the 21st century.

 

 

I'll stick to rebuilding the OE Kohler carbs. 

I've had to buy a couple from Lincoln. 

It's expensive, yes. But in my experience... Worth the investment in money to save the investment in time and aggravation.  

 

[Wheelhorse#1 1,669]

I haven't had good luck with them either.IST brand seems to be the same as the other off shore brands sold on scamazon and flee bay and else where.

I look for old OEM, rebuild them when ever possible. Throttle shaft kits are still available, most of the old used carbs need them I find. 

 

Ill also add that I have purchased other parts from IST, no complaints there, great service .I do like the store and it has some very helpful info there. 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Wheelhorse#1

[kpinnc 12,096]

I've only got two Kohler powered machines left, so I am no expert by any means. I have a couple engines I have considered rebuilding, but time will tell.

 

That being said, I've been lucky with aftermarket carbs so far. I've used several, and then rebuilt the OEM as needed. Having extra carbs around is an easy swap when needed, and keeps my machines running while the rebuild progresses. 

 

Keep in mind that many of my tractors hibernate during winter- or at least sit for weeks at a time during winter. We don't get much if any snow. So sometimes carbs are the "weak spot" on my tractors. Yes I run the fuel out, but you never get it all...

 

I haven't bought much from Norman, but I do still plan to. I've been happy with his parts in the past. OEM parts are also pretty much gone now, and we sometimes have to "make the best" of what is still available. 

Edited October 24, 2023 by kpinnc

[elcamino/wheelhorse 9,326]

I have never had any problems with IST carbs , have 3 running right now 2 on Magnums and one on a K181. May be I have been lucky.

[Mike'sHorseBarn 2,998]

I've never tried any aftermarket carbs, though I have been tempted to try one. I buy a lot of stuff from isavetractors but just never got a carb. I'm working on a briggs with a one piece flo jet carb that has a non replaceable seat in it that is shot and can't find an OEM briggs carb so I may have to try a china carb for it.....

[Sailman 1,291]

@ebinmaine it might be worth a conversation with Norman letting him know you and folks on this forum are having problems with the QC on the carbs. Maybe he can source from a different manufacturer. Norman provides a great service to old tractor owners and given the volume of buyers from this site he might want to hear about it. Just a thought.

[ebinmaine 67,636]

2 minutes ago, Sailman said:

@ebinmaine it might be worth a conversation with Norman letting him know you and folks on this forum are having problems with the QC on the carbs. Maybe he can source from a different manufacturer. Norman provides a great service to old tractor owners and given the volume of buyers from this site he might want to hear about it. Just a thought.

 

 

Agreed. I've had the same thought.

 

[Brockport Bill 1,668]

i have also purchased carbs and rebuild kits from IST --- regarding the specifications of the IST carbs mentioned in the thread........ as well as the threads comments regarding communicating with Norman.. i do recall on his site, or maybe even in his videos, that he says his carbs are produced to his "specifications"? I may be recalling incorrectly, but if he does spec his carbs, maybe your conversation with him would have value because then he can redesign/adjust the spec to accomodate your perspectives, insights and experiences?????????? Bill

[RED-Z06 2,221]

Not all chicom carbs are equal...the majority of carbs i sell are aftermarket, keep in mind that Briggs has been using Rux Ing chinese carbs as oem for about 5 years, Honda factory carbs are Chinese, some Kohler as well. I started delving into Chinese carbs when factory carbs doubled in price a few years ago with a decline in quality...i figured if im going to sell sketchy parts i mighy as well maximize the value.  Quickly saw issues...but then i found "Kipa" carbs..on Amazon and their quality/performance has been very good for me.  Alot goes back to low quality fuel, not ethanol as much as fuel being garbage.

[ri702bill 8,341]

2 hours ago, RED-Z06 said:

not ethanol as much as fuel being garbage.

And that there is the arguement to run higher octane non ethanol fuel...  IF you can either find it or afford it. (as per another discussion awhile back)

If you do run ethanol gas - DO use a 91 or higher choice - NOT 87. Seems the 87 is somewhat dirty from the cracking process and left that way, the higher grades are cleaner. The cornsilk and silica sand found in 87 can get forced thru a car fuel injector OK due to the high fuel pressure, but will clog the orificeses (orifi ???) in a small engine carb faster than you can say "Who the hell is Honey Boo-Boo??"

[ri702bill 8,341]

3 hours ago, RED-Z06 said:

Not all chicom carbs are equal.

You mean the non-original copies from Cheap-o-nesia???

[oliver2-44 9,761]

3 hours ago, RED-Z06 said:

.  Alot goes back to low quality fuel, not ethanol as much as fuel being garbage.

Fuel quality might be a small part of the problem,

But the real big problem is them selling "Universal " size carbs.

If the throat size is to small its like putting a #26 12 hp carb where a #30 16hp carb should be used.  

The engine might idle OK, but will struggle when loaded up,

Just my 2 cents!

 

20 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

Other things NEED to be noted for someone considering a purchase on a 14 HP or 16 HP.  

 

The inside diameter of the center bore is MUCH smaller than the original equipment Kohler #30 carb. 

This means IT IS NOT the universal replacement I was led to believe.  

OE is approximately  .9 inches. 

isavetractors carb is approximately  .75  inches. 

That's a pretty serious difference. 

 

[RED-Z06 2,221]

35 minutes ago, ri702bill said:

And that there is the arguement to run higher octane non ethanol fuel...  IF you can either find it or afford it. (as per another discussion awhile back)

If you do run ethanol gas - DO use a 91 or higher choice - NOT 87. Seems the 87 is somewhat dirty from the cracking process and left that way, the higher grades are cleaner. The cornsilk and silica sand found in 87 can get forced thru a car fuel injector OK due to the high fuel pressure, but will clog the orificeses (orifi ???) in a small engine carb faster than you can say "Who the hell is Honey Boo-Boo??"

At Refineries and Distribution hubs, its all in one tank or set of tanks, its all "white brand 85" that meats the most basic requirements for fuel..minimal additives, such as a preservative.  At the tankwagon they have multiple internal tanks...here they will all get hooked to the bulk "white brand 85" and you'll get the additive package blended in...octane for the premium, ethanol will get blended in here, and any proprietary additives like Shell or Texaco for "premium" fuels.  At the station the mom and pop stores will get the white brand 85, which with 10% ethanol is roughly 87octane and they can pay the extra if needed for some premium..which could be Shell,  Texaco, Chevron, BP...etc.  low and high octane is blended at the pump to form mid-grade.

 

 

 

[RED-Z06 2,221]

14 minutes ago, oliver2-44 said:

Fuel quality might be a small part of the problem,

But the real big problem is them selling "Universal " size carbs.

If the throat size is to small its like putting a #26 12 hp carb where a #30 16hp carb should be used.  

The engine might idle OK, but will struggle when loaded up,

Just my 2 cents!

 

 

You'll get more velocity from the smaller venturi, it would be more responsive, it would only really be a restriction at wide open 100% load.

[ebinmaine 67,636]

22 minutes ago, RED-Z06 said:

You'll get more velocity from the smaller venturi, it would be more responsive, it would only really be a restriction at wide open 100% load.

In principle and from all my past understandings I agree but real world experience shows me different.  

An OE Kohler carb makes our backhoe M16 run smoother and sound like it's working less.  

It's possible that's because that engine has a decent workload running the two pumps and moving the tractor so it can fully utilize the larger carb... but it's certainly a better running, easier to use machine with the full sized venturi.  

 

[ineedanother 1,369]

I don't buy into the narrative that lower octane fuel is any less refined or "clean" than high octane. I actually believe that "premium" fuel is a bit of a misnomer as it is less "explosive" in order to eliminate preignition in high compression chambers...but I could be way off and it wouldn't be the first or last time 

 

As for ethanol, other than being very destructive, it's inefficient. I burned 3 tanks of E85 in my Yukon to see how it performed and I lost over 3 mpg!

 

EDIT:  My apologies about the fuel, and I wouldn't want to be Norman trying to source quality aftermarket parts these days.

Edited October 24, 2023 by ineedanother

[oliver2-44 9,761]

6 hours ago, RED-Z06 said:

You'll get more velocity from the smaller venturi, it would be more responsive, it would only really be a restriction at wide open 100% load.

Im no expert, but my thinking is it would be more responsive on the low end. But if it had small jets to match the smaller Venturi it would be starving for fuel on the high end. This matches my experience putting an aftermarket universal carb on my 16 hp C160. Good idle and it would speed up to 3600 rpm no load, but turn the mower PTO on and feed it some grass and it bogged down.  It mows great with the correct #30 carb.  I then moved that same universal carb to a 12hp. I couldn’t adjust the idle down but it ran good at top end. 
Just my experience. 

[RED-Z06 2,221]

I have a question for the OP....the website offers (2) k single/m single carb options for the big blocks. 

 

K241/K301 M10/M12 

K321/K341/K361(ohv)-M14/M16

 

Then it lists the throttle bore and venturi sizes.

 

The 10 and 12hp variants using the smaller Model 26, and the 14-18 using the larger Model 30.

 

Im assuming, based on your post that you have a 14-18hp model, but the carb you have, seems to be spec'd as the smaller version.  Is it possible that they mis-packaged the wrong carb, or you said the wrong model by mistake?

 

https://isavetractors.com/carburetor-bundle-pack-for-k241-k301-m10-and-m12-engines/

 

 

https://isavetractors.com/carburetor-30-for-kohler-k321-k341-k361-m14-and-m16/

 

[ebinmaine 67,636]

4 hours ago, RED-Z06 said:

Im assuming, based on your post that you have a 14-18hp model, but the carb you have, seems to be spec'd as the smaller version.

 

  Is it possible that they mis-packaged the wrong carb,

 

or you said the wrong model by mistake?

 

You're correct that I'm working on a 16 HP in this case. 

 

It's certainly possible that they've sent/packaged the incorrect carb. 

 

I said the model I meant to. 

 

That part may be of no fault to Norman or even his parts supplier. Could have been a manufacturing issue. 

I'll certainly acknowledge that.  

 

 

However.....

The worn out throttle shaft bore has nothing to do with the size of the venturi.  

 

[RED-Z06 2,221]

4 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

 

You're correct that I'm working on a 16 HP in this case. 

 

It's certainly possible that they've sent/packaged the incorrect carb. 

 

I said the model I meant to. 

 

That part may be of no fault to Norman or even his parts supplier. Could have been a manufacturing issue. 

I'll certainly acknowledge that.  

 

 

However.....

The worn out throttle shaft bore has nothing to do with the size of the venturi.  

 

I can't speak to the hardness of the body, ive used a few K/M chinese carbs and never seen a shaft or body wear of any note.  I can address the hole in the throttle plate though, thats a pretty common practice, the plate to bore clearance is very tight, they design them so the plate can be put on, loosely..and the lever worked back and forth to let the plate find its ideal position (with the idle screw backed off), then the screws tightened down snug.  Otherwise each individual blade would have to be precisely machined to each individual carburetor.

[johnnymag3 2,520]

23 hours ago, Brockport Bill said:

he says his carbs are produced to his "specifications"?

 

I don't believe China Companies are taking personal requests from us ???....That seems to be reaching alot ..

 

JM.02 Cents

 

John    

[ebinmaine 67,636]

2 minutes ago, johnnymag3 said:

 

 China Companies are taking personal requests from ..... 

 

 

....Companies all over the world. 

 

That is exactly what they do.

 

There are manufacturing specialists that have connections to factories all over.

 

 

As a point of interest I'm not so sure Norman's carbs are made in china.