Make SURE you are buying non-ethanol gas CORRECTLY

[ebinmaine 67,520]

A day or three ago I was perusing the interwebs. 

I found a video that caught my attention because it was about non-ethanol gasoline.

 

From what I understand there are gasoline pumps that leave non-ethanol in the same pumping system as the regular alcohol infested gasolines and you just choose it at time of purchase as you would with a differing octane rating, for instance.

 

Odds are pretty high that the person who pumped gas just before you did NOT get non ethanol.

Depending on how the pumps are set up that means somewhere between 1 and 4 gallons of the wrong fluid could be in the system.

 

 

If you are using a setup such as this be sure to purge 4 gallons first.... Easiest way would be to pump a few into your road vehicle.

 

 

[ri702bill 8,325]

The same happens at the "mixing" pumps at discount outlets. They have 3 octane grades - BUT only a tank for 87 and a tank for 91 in the ground. Where do you think the "89" comes from???

Yup - mixing the two. Same result as Eric said..........

[Racinbob 11,082]

I never thought of that. It's good you mention it now. I've been buying my no booze at a station with a dedicated pump. A couple weeks ago I  saw a Murphy station in Michigan City with it and it was cheaper but it was a combo pump. Pumping a few gallons in my truck is a great idea but would negate the savings so I'll keep going to my usual. If I do end up at a combo pump I'll keep this in mind. 

[ebinmaine 67,520]

Here's the pump at one of three stations I use.  

 

 

 

 

 

This is a full-service station. I asked the young fellow to pump a little bit into my car first. It was very obvious he had done this many many times for other people.

He says, "You want like a gallon and a half in there?"

Apparently that's about how much they figure is in their own systems... 

[Handy Don 12,232]

23 minutes ago, ri702bill said:

Where do you think the "89" comes from

Was waiting at a Sunoco a while back to give a friend a ride when a tanker started its delivery. Got chatting with the driver about tanks sizes, ground strap safety, not venting the fumes, and how they figure how much of each of the three grades to deliver. “I only deliver 87 and 91” says he "and the pump mixes it”. The things you don’t think about.

Make me wonder why they can’t deliver only 87 and then have the pump supply some sort of “octane booster” additive. Any ChemE’s out there with the answer?

[SylvanLakeWH 25,573]

All very interesting, including the $$$ each station is making on that 1-3 gallons of standard low octane e-gas in the line each time... 

[ebinmaine 67,520]

6 minutes ago, SylvanLakeWH said:

All very interesting, including the $$$ each station is making on that 1-3 gallons of standard low octane e-gas in the line each time... 

That lack of value was one of  my bigger concerns too. 

 

[Handy Don 12,232]

1 minute ago, ebinmaine said:

That lack of value was one of  my bigger concerns too. 

 

So I should always try to get the pump just used by someone who bought 91 to get a bit of extra value for my car!

[ri702bill 8,325]

Yip - follow the Bimmer!!!!

[Ed Kennell 38,178]

So, you pull in and pump 1.5 gallon of high priced non E which is actually cheap 10-15% E.   

Then you pump 5 gallon of high priced non E into your can.

Then you reset the same pump and pump in 1.5 gallon of cheap E-10 which is actually high priced non E.

 

 

I'll have to post this on Mrs.Ks sun visor. 

[ebinmaine 67,520]

14 minutes ago, Ed Kennell said:

So, you pull in and pump 1.5 gallon of high priced non E which is actually cheap 10-15% E.   

Then you pump 5 gallon of high priced non E into your can.

Then you reset the same pump and pump in 1.5 gallon of cheap E-10 which is actually high priced non E.

 

 

I'll have to post this on Mrs.Ks sun visor. 

 

It's unlikely I'll keep using this particular station.  

I like the value of things to be more accurate.   

[Handy Don 12,232]

11 minutes ago, Ed Kennell said:

So, you pull in and pump 1.5 gallon of high priced non E which is actually cheap 10-15% E.   

Then you pump 5 gallon of high priced non E into your can.

Then you reset the same pump and pump in 1.5 gallon of cheap E-10 which is actually high priced non E.

 

Interesting. Veeeerrrry interesting....but might not work as hoped.

At my usual station I tried to fill the car with mid-grade then end the transaction then start a new transaction with 87 for the equipment. Wouldn’t accept my credit card for the second transaction! (You cannot switch grades mid-transaction, either -- tried that too!)

[Sailman 1,291]

Station I use close by for non E gas has 1 pump for 87 and a separate pump for non E. It's near Lake Lanier so plenty of stations around here sell non E for the boaters. Most have a dedicated pump.

[Horse Newbie 7,070]

I have been getting my non-ethanol at a pump that dispenses 87, 89 non-ethanol, and 91…

Then I seen that same type video on YouTube…

I decided I will take a right instead of a left and hit another nearby station that sells their non-ethanol from a separate, single pump. It may even cost a little more( don’t know yet), but it won’t hurt me that much…

[ri702bill 8,325]

13 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

then start a new transaction with 87 for the equipment.

Oh, the humanity!!!!  Don, 87 is for the wife's car!!!!!!! 

[Rob J. 1,942]

I get mine from the local hardware and they have their own above ground tank they take from. 👍

[SylvanLakeWH 25,573]

2 hours ago, Ed Kennell said:

So, you pull in and pump 1.5 gallon of high priced non E which is actually cheap 10-15% E.   

Then you pump 5 gallon of high priced non E into your can.

Then you reset the same pump and pump in 1.5 gallon of cheap E-10 which is actually high priced non E.

 

 

I'll have to post this on Mrs.Ks sun visor. 

 

Wait... if who pumps first, and what pumps second, i don't know pumps third??? 

 

 

 

 

[davem1111 2,030]

Luckily for me, the place where I buy it has a dedicated "non-ethanol only" pump. I am grateful for that. Just wish it didn't cost *more* to not have something *added* to it.... 

[wh500special 2,184]

5 hours ago, Handy Don said:

…

Make me wonder why they can’t deliver only 87 and then have the pump supply some sort of “octane booster” additive. Any ChemE’s out there with the answer?

I’m a ChE, but fuel blending isn’t my specialty.  However, I can approximate an answer:

 

Gasoline is a mixture of a bunch of different hydrocarbon molecules, the average of which have approximately 8 carbons.  Hence the “oct” in octane.  To get the specific properties they need to meet specifications and meet customers’ needs, the actual blend from manufacturer-to-manufacturer and from product-to-product can vary a bit but must always fall into certain windows to meet energy content, knock resistance, evaporation rate, stability, and a panoply of other requirements.  
 

The backbone fuel blends for the two primary fuel grades can therefore be tweaked a bit to match up to performance and cost targets.  Higher octane blends probably contain (slightly) more long chain or interesting molecules to bump the octane rating somewhat naturally versus the gains that could be made by boosting octane with specialty - and likely more expensive - chemical additives.  So using two base fuels is probably just more economical for the gasoline producers than merely spiking the mix with octane improvers.  They used to do that very thing when tetraethyl lead was allowed.  
 

While the petroleum companies make money faster than their shareholders can spend it, their margins on gasoline are actually quite low.  They make up for it in the unfathomable volumes of gasoline they sell to us to burn in our trucks and SUVs.  If they can save a half a penny a gallon and still meet minimum specs, you can be assured they will do so. 
 

While I would bet the additive package differences between regular and premium aren’t too significant, the gas retailers make an effort to market the detergents added to their premium grades as an upgrade too.  If they are indeed blending the detergent additives differently it also makes sense to have two stocks at the gas station rather than one. 
 

Lastly, most octane boosting additives are added as a very small percentage of the overall blend.  Proportioning equipment to bleed in a few drops of something into a fast-flowing stream of liquid is quite expensive to buy and fussy to keep calibrated to a level that would guarantee product quality.  It’s better to do this at the factory where they have sophisticated equipment, lots of resources, and ways to measure and ensure quality. 
 

I assume it’s not done as widely these days, but gasoline used to be a bit of a catch-all for overruns or off-spec products also made in the refinery.  Benzene and other aromatics, as an example, used to end up in gasoline in higher proportions than they do now.   The products are tightly controlled and closely regulated since there are so many peripheral environmental and health problems that can result from too much of this or that being dumped in.  And the auto manufacturers have also pushed the industry to make fuels that don’t cause them avoidable warranty claims.  While the fuel today is different than 40 years ago, I would be a hard sell on thinking it used to be empirically better. 
 

In the winter, gasoline blends are a little different than they are in warmer months.  The fuel mix is lightened up a bit to make vaporization in the engine easier to promote easy starting and clean burning.  This can knock the energy content down a little bit and translate into marginally increased consumption.  Accompanied by the increased fuel use needed by the car to keep the operating temperature up you’ll notice a measurable hit to your fuel economy.  I assume that octane level might be a little different in the winter blends than in the summer as a consequence of this reblending. 
 

The octane rating - while a measure of the fuel’s resistance to autoignite at elevated temperatures - is benchmarked against the characteristics of precise blends of octane and other smaller molecules.  So the ‘oct’ nomenclature carries over in this instance too.  It follows then that the resultant octane rating that comes from blending gasolines of different octane ratings is fractionally proportional to the amounts of each used.  E.g. if you blend them 1:1 you’ll end up with an octane rating halfway between either of them. So the station really only needs

to keep two base fuels on hand. 
 

As for ethanol, I make no efforts to avoid it.  It’s just one more additive in the mix. 

 

Steve

[davem1111 2,030]

8 hours ago, wh500special said:

[...]

As for ethanol, I make no efforts to avoid it.  It’s just one more additive in the mix. 

 

Steve

 

Wow - thanks for explaining what to most of us is some kind of black magic.  I'm curious though, in regard to ethanol. Is it imagination, wishful thinking, or maybe other factors that make it at least seem like we have less carb issues with small engines, at least, when running non-ethanol gas? Because it seems that I used to have to clean gunk out of clogged carbs just about every year before switching to non-ethanol, and now I don't. Or maybe the non-ethanol gas has more/better detergents or other additives, and it's not really the lack of ethanol that's making things better?  

[ebinmaine 67,520]

9 hours ago, wh500special said:

 

As for ethanol, I make no efforts to avoid it.  It’s just one more additive in the mix. 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, davem1111 said:

lack of ethanol

 

 

For the street driven vehicle that I have no intention of keeping more than 3 to 8 years I do not avoid ethanol because it simply isn't practical.

 

 

On our small engines, I have real world personal firsthand experience that shows me using ethanol is terrible for these old school  simple carbureted engines.

 

It used to be that the rubber was degrading quickly and that would clog up the carburetor but we've moved past that. It's pretty easy to find fuel lines that can be used with whatever chemical you want.

 

The thing that's biting us I think, is condensation.

We haven't used non-ethanol gas for several years now but we take care of other engines owned by other people that do. We also have a splitter that we have lent out and would absolutely do so again.

That was used with just two or three tanks of Street gas and it clogged the carburetor with the famous ethanol pearls and slime.

 

 

Is this all coincidence? I'm open-minded enough to believe it certainly could be, but I don't believe so.

 

 

[JoeM 7,874]

I think I would like to take a 5 gallon sample and test it.

just to see the percentage. 

I get the non E stuff from a station with a separate pump. Kind of weird tho, the pump gives non E gas or Diesel. It has separate hoses. for each. 

It has been a while since I tested the gas. The ethanol stuff tested right at 10% and the non E stuff was free of ethanol.

RS myth-busters exercise 

 

I need to know if I have to lurk  around the gas station and wait to see if anyone pumps the good stuff and get to that pump?

Edited September 28, 2023 by JoeM

[Ed Kennell 38,178]

Boat owners and E-10 woes

.E-10 In Winter | BoatUS

 

 

 

[Handy Don 12,232]

15 hours ago, ri702bill said:

Oh, the humanity!!!!  Don, 87 is for the wife's car!!!!!!! 

Been running street gas 87 exclusively forever--cars, generator, mowers, saws, blower, trimmer, chipper, etc. I only upped to mid-grade for my latest car out of caution because it is mentioned in the multi-year extended warranty.

I promise, though, that the very first time I hear pre-detonation in any of my low compression small engines (a ping) I’ll switch it to 89 or maybe 91. 

 

My strategy for avoiding ethanol issues is simple--keep using fresh gas. Don’t store it for more than a couple of months. Empty and run dry any engine before storing it for longer than a couple of months (I’m a fan of the carb bowl drains on Tecumseh engines, a feature I wish Kohler and Briggs had copied.)

 

@wh500special, many thanks for the excellent insights into fuels and octanes! For years I tracked my cars’ fuel economy and dreaded the onset of poor mileage every Fall and smiled at the return of “summer” mix in the spring though I did give an appreciative nod to being able to start the car in the coldest weather! And yes, the sheer volume of fuel being combusted in the U.S. is breathtaking (pun intended) for sure.

[Darrenw85 607]

It makes sense that when a gas station runs out of 87 they don't have 89 either.  

 

I buy my ethanol free gas from two different places that have the ethanol free pumps off to the side by themselves.  All my small engines run much better and the carburetor maintenance is way down with the ethanol free gas.