Mix 'n Match 417 & 520 parts - possible?

[ebinmaine 67,520]

2 minutes ago, davem1111 said:

tried to use a roll pin punch and it is still refusing to move, will probably have to cut the column

Got access to a press or carbide drills as mentioned earlier?

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, davem1111 said:

need anything other than power to the starter and a gasoline IV

 

@squonk has a neat engine test bench. 

Trina made up a temporary one. 

We used an ignition switch from the proper tractor and ran jumper wires to the appropriate places. 

 

 

[davem1111 2,030]

35 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

Got access to a press or carbide drills as mentioned earlier?

 

 

No press, and I tried a Milwaukee Titanium bit and it said "nope". Is carbide harder than titanium?

 

38 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

 

@squonk has a neat engine test bench. 

Trina made up a temporary one. 

We used an ignition switch from the proper tractor and ran jumper wires to the appropriate places. 

 

 

The only wires I am aware of other than power to the starter are the two that come out of the voltage regulator, which go into a plug that splits the on into 2. I haven't looked at the wiring diagram yet, but do I need to hook those up to anything or is that just for charging the battery?  I just want to see if the engine will fire and run for a few seconds.

 

[ebinmaine 67,520]

10 minutes ago, davem1111 said:

No press, and I tried a Milwaukee Titanium bit and it said "nope". Is carbide harder than titanium?

 

Milwaukee is a great brand. 

Titanium is a good drill hardness. 

Carbide will chew up  a titanium bit.   

 

 

12 minutes ago, davem1111 said:

want to see if the engine will fire and run for a few seconds

 

You'll need to power the coil and the points. 

The coil shouldn't have power for long because it'll get every kind of hot. 

 

If you follow a generic diagram for something like a '67 Kohler engine tractor that should get you there. 

 

[davem1111 2,030]

On 9/24/2023 at 4:14 PM, ebinmaine said:

 

Milwaukee is a great brand. 

Titanium is a good drill hardness. 

Carbide will chew up  a titanium bit.   

 

 

I'll be ordering a good set of carbide bits. I thought what I had was hard enough but I guess not always.

 

On 9/24/2023 at 4:14 PM, ebinmaine said:

You'll need to power the coil and the points. 

The coil shouldn't have power for long because it'll get every kind of hot. 

 

If you follow a generic diagram for something like a '67 Kohler engine tractor that should get you there. 

 

 

I have the 417-H wiring diagram for the basics, and the 520-H diagram for later if I get far enough to hook it all up.

 

BTW, it occurred to me that while I have this all torn down, I'd like to convert it to a foot pedal motion control. I know some here have done that, and there are kits for this but I'd rather fab my own if I can. I would probably buy the right foot pedal from an 8-speed, but I'd need to weld on a heel pad for reverse, and I think these are cast iron which might be a challenge to weld to. Any thoughts on that? 

[Ed Kennell 38,178]

1 hour ago, davem1111 said:

but I'd need to weld on a heel pad for reverse,

Some of the pedals have a flange that can be drilled for a bolt on lever.

 

 

 

[Handy Don 12,232]

1 hour ago, davem1111 said:

I'll be ordering a good set of carbide bits. I thought what I had was hard enough but I guess not always.

 

The toughest bits in my arsenal are cobalt, reserved for when I know the metal is hard. These need good amount of lubrication and steady pressure to stay cool.

[ebinmaine 67,520]

1 hour ago, davem1111 said:

BTW, it occurred to me that while I have this all torn down, I'd like to convert it to a foot pedal motion control. I know some here have done that, and there are kits for this but I'd rather fab my own if I can. I would probably buy the right foot pedal from an 8-speed, but I'd need to weld on a heel pad for reverse, and I think these are cast iron which might be a challenge to weld to. Any thoughts on that? 

 

If you're going to weld up something why not just make the whole pedal?

A piece of  .75 ID steel tube. (black iron pipe) for the base over the tractor step support. 

 

A couple hunks chunks of other things for the riser and foot tab. 

 

 

[Handy Don 12,232]

5 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

If you're going to weld up something why not just make the whole pedal?

 

Also note @Bill D’s thread on his progress making a pedal motion control (I think he’s closing in one that satisfies him!)

[davem1111 2,030]

2 hours ago, Handy Don said:

The toughest bits in my arsenal are cobalt, reserved for when I know the metal is hard. These need good amount of lubrication and steady pressure to stay cool.

 

Now I'm confused. I asked the Googles what was hardest, and he said "Carbide".  I was in the vicinity of my local Lowes so I stopped in and bought a 5 piece set of carbides by Irwin. From what I saw, the cobalts were less expensive, which I assumed correlated to relative hardness. Well, we'll see if the carbide bit can cut that roll pin.

[Handy Don 12,232]

32 minutes ago, davem1111 said:

 

Now I'm confused. I asked the Googles what was hardest, and he said "Carbide".  I was in the vicinity of my local Lowes so I stopped in and bought a 5 piece set of carbides by Irwin. From what I saw, the cobalts were less expensive, which I assumed correlated to relative hardness. Well, we'll see if the carbide bit can cut that roll pin.

Carbides were out of my budget at the time so I went one notch down to Cobalt. 

Plus, I realized I won’t likely be drilling the hardest stuff so Carbides would have been overkill to me.

[davem1111 2,030]

5 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

Carbides were out of my budget at the time so I went one notch down to Cobalt. 

Plus, I realized I won’t likely be drilling the hardest stuff so Carbides would have been overkill to me.

 

These weren't bad - $19.95 for a set of 5, I think from 1/8" up to 3/8".  If I need to drill anything larger in very hard metal, I'll probably try drilling a pilot hole with these then try one of the Milwaukee or Dewalts I have, maybe they're cobalt, don't remember.  Wishing I had just bought a full set of the hardest ones first, but I do more wood drilling than metal (at least, I have in the past). I may not be messing with this again till next weekend, so we'll see. My wife hasn't been feeling well and needs my help around the house.

[davem1111 2,030]

3 hours ago, Handy Don said:

Also note @Bill D’s thread on his progress making a pedal motion control (I think he’s closing in one that satisfies him!)

 

Yeah. Lots of useful stuff in that thread:  

 

 

[Achto 27,577]

2 minutes ago, davem1111 said:

If I need to drill anything larger in very hard metal, I'll probably try drilling a pilot hole with these then try one of the Milwaukee or Dewalts I have, maybe they're cobalt, don't remember.

 

If you are drilling out a roll pin, then carbide is the ONLY thing that will work. All other bit will just dull out.

 

14 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

Carbides were out of my budget at the time so I went one notch down to Cobalt. 

 

Low price masonry bits have carbide tips on them and work for drilling out roll pins. Run the bit at high speed for best results.

[Bill D 1,922]

I used this 3/16" bit from Home Disaster to get a spiral pin out.  Drilled out the center then the rest came out easy.  After I get the pin out I take the upper dash off (older 300/400 series) slide the column cover and dash down and clean and sand the shaft below the wheel.  Then put the bottom end of the shaft on the floor on a piece of wood or rubber so it doesn't get mushroomed.  Take socket and hammer and drive the wheel down on the shaft.  Clean the end of the shaft where the wheel was and it should slide up and off.  Take a 3/4" fitting brush and cut off the handle and chuck the rest in a drill and clean the bore of the steering wheel.   Works good on older machines with the rubber grip wheels.

Edited September 26, 2023 by Bill D

[Bill D 1,922]

11 hours ago, davem1111 said:

 

Yeah. Lots of useful stuff in that thread:  

 

 

Haven't got back to it yet.  Going to change the angle of the reverse side of the notch in the centering arm.  I have a 1/2" more deflection in reverse than forward.  A more gentle angle should even out the required pedal pressure.  Thanks again@Handy Donfor the input.

 

I hope the information helps someone.  Build at your own risk.

 

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Bill D

[davem1111 2,030]

It runs!  ( didn't know the history of this engine so I didn't know if it would... )

-  wanted to know before proceeding with this project.

[Handy Don 12,232]

Nice sound from that engine out of the dual mufflers. Onward and upward!

[davem1111 2,030]

19 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

Nice sound from that engine out of the dual mufflers. Onward and upward!

 

Yeah, I like the way it sounds.  I still haven't gotten the steering wheel off the column, even drilling with carbide and cobalt bits. I'm close though. I don't think there's much roll pin left outside the steel of the column, but it won't hammer off, so maybe I just need to let it soak with penetrant for a while. I'm looking forward to having some fun fabbing up a motion pedal on this thing. 

[Bill D 1,922]

1 hour ago, davem1111 said:

 

Yeah, I like the way it sounds.  I still haven't gotten the steering wheel off the column, even drilling with carbide and cobalt bits. I'm close though. I don't think there's much roll pin left outside the steel of the column, but it won't hammer off, so maybe I just need to let it soak with penetrant for a while. I'm looking forward to having some fun fabbing up a motion pedal on this thing. 

I've built two different style pedals.  Tough to choose which one I like better. The second one was easier to build.

Edited October 2, 2023 by Bill D

[davem1111 2,030]

7 hours ago, Bill D said:

I've built two different style pedals.  Tough to choose which one I like better. The second one was easier to build.

 

Were they both documented in the same thread?  I think I only saw (or noticed) one type. I'm curious about any and all ideas on this. 

 

I have an "extra" PTO engagement rod and brake engagement rod, and I'm wondering if either of those would be easy to implement as the motion pedal engagement rod. I have some 3/4" black iron pipe that I can use as the base for the pedal.

[Ed Kennell 38,178]

25 minutes ago, davem1111 said:

I'm curious about any and all ideas on this. 

I have pedals on my 312, 417, and 520.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bill D 1,922]

4 hours ago, davem1111 said:

 

Were they both documented in the same thread?  I think I only saw (or noticed) one type. I'm curious about any and all ideas on this. 

 

I have an "extra" PTO engagement rod and brake engagement rod, and I'm wondering if either of those would be easy to implement as the motion pedal engagement rod. I have some 3/4" black iron pipe that I can use as the base for the pedal.

Different threads.  Not sure how to attach a link for each thread.  You'll want to use DOM tubing for the pivot as it's smooth on the inside.

[davem1111 2,030]

I want to test the hydro on this Frankenstein monster also, before going much further. But all the drive belts I have seem to be too long. What is the best way to measure the belt length that would work best? If I run a tape measure around the pulleys, assuming the tape is narrow enough to fit down into the "V" of the pulleys, I'll be measuring the ID of the belt - is that what the lengths are based on, or the OD, or the "middle" or difference between the two?  I'd need enough slack for the idler, which is not installed yet.

 

I was going to just rig up a hand-held idler for now just for brief testing, but when I push down on the top belt it hits the bottom one before getting tight.  I don't think the mount bracket allow the engine to be shifted forward a bit either, but I'll have another look at that - maybe I have it mounted wrong? 

 

There is also the possibility of testing with an electric motor, I have several, but none have an appropriate pulley on them at present. I know there are some here who have used that method for testing a trans.

[Ed Kennell 38,178]

To test my hydros I chain it to a tree or truck, then park a running tractor behind and drive the front hydro via the PTO.  No need for an idler/tensioner.

 

If it wont spin the wheels in full forward and reverse, it fails.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Ed Kennell

[davem1111 2,030]

On 10/6/2023 at 2:00 PM, Ed Kennell said:

To test my hydros I chain it to a tree or truck, then park a running tractor behind and drive the front hydro via the PTO.  No need for an idler/tensioner.

 

If it wont spin the wheels in full forward and reverse, it fails.

 

 

I tested the hydro that way, and it seems to be fine. Need to get it out for a test drive, so.....

 

I've been working on fabbing a motion pedal for it, after looking over all the stuff that I've seen around here, and decided on what I think is a much simpler solution, mostly using what I have lying around. I did buy some of these Hillman sleeves that fit on the pedal bar, and some Heim joints.  Welded a bent piece of metal onto the Hillman sleeve, then bent another piece of metal to go behind the belt then up in behind the engine, and attached one end of a bar with Heim joints on both ends to it. Other end goes to where the linkage from the hydro attaches to the swivel part that the handle would be attached to if there was one. I do plan to weld a wider flat piece on top to put my foot on, and probably attach some springs in both directions to return it to idle (that might be a bit tricky and will need the ability to be adjusted). It might be a bit tricky getting the belt guard back on also, but I'll cut it a little if I have to.  Forward and backward motion of the pedal does not hit the engine shroud or fan gear, but moves the hydro linkage completely in both directions. I think it's gonna work.