Mix 'n Match 417 & 520 parts - possible?

[davem1111 2,030]

I'm curious as to whether this might work. Background:  I have a "partial" 417-H tractor, and a bunch of parts from a 520-H. What I'm wondering if it is possible, is using the tower tins, console and hood from the 520-H on the 417-H frame. It seems that the major concern would be the position and angle of the steering column, but also whether there are bolt holes in the right places and if stuff will line up properly.

 

Also, I have a 520-H wiring harness so hooking up the various gauges and ignition switch should not be too challenging. The biggest challenge *might* be getting the steering wheel off the 417, which I haven't tried yet. The hood has the 520 style "cut out" for the console, so I can't use it with the 417 tower/console - that's one large motivation for looking into this. 

 

One other consideration is, I have a Kohler 17hp twin, which I believe was rebuilt but is not on the tractor. I should probably mount that on the tractor (or somewhere) and see if it runs before getting too deeply into this, but wanted to see if there were any major reasons not to try pursuing this idea.  Thoughts?

[oliver2-44 9,761]

I’m following along 

[Achto 27,609]

With a little work & perseverance you should be able to accomplish anything.  Some of this, a little of that, add some voltage, and then.....

 

 

 

[Lee1977 6,670]

I think the frame will not be a problem. The 417-8, 417-A and the 1988, 1989 520-H all have the same frame number 110648.r. Can't go by Toro frame numbers as they changed ever year 1990 and later, but the only difference would be the reduction steering. You will need the upper section of the 520 Hood stand as it's wider. and the upper steering support as it is bolted to the barttery plate the later models with upper controls it's part of the plate. The one shown was made for the bushing but I added the bearing.

 

Edited September 19, 2023 by Lee1977

[wallfish 17,014]

With a sparkling magic wand, anything fits!

But I'm guessing most stuff will bolt right up and nothing wrong with drilling a hole for a bolt if needed. Make it work

 

 

 

[Handy Don 12,237]

21 minutes ago, Lee1977 said:

the only difference would be the reduction steering.

I agree. You might need an extra pair of holes for the reduction assembly at the base of the hoodstand, depending on when the frame for the 417 was made.

The steering shaft for the reduction steering is different than for the regular steering (different diameter shaft going into the steering base and different gear angle/tooth count) so maybe you won’t need the 417’s current shaft?

If not, cut the shaft and get better access for removing the steering wheel if you need it. Not hard to get another standard steering shaft, if needed.

Edited September 19, 2023 by Handy Don

[kpinnc 12,096]

3 hours ago, davem1111 said:

I'm curious as to whether this might work.

 

Everything I have came from such ideas. If it wasn't for cross compatibility on these tractors, none of mine would be what they are. 

 

Might be the occasional mod needed, but most are minor.

[Ed Kennell 38,227]

Here's my 417A with 48"SD deck.       You could raise the front another inch by lowering the front stop bolt, but I think the rear of the deck would still be limited by the foot rest.

 

The deck frame is up against the foot rests.   The rubber bumper has been removed.

 

 

 

Edited September 19, 2023 by Ed Kennell

[davem1111 2,030]

Lots of good suggestions and thoughts here - thanks!

 

The "donor" 520-H does have the reduction steering (and swept front axle) but those are still part of a tractor that is going to @ebinmaine when he can find a ride back east for it along with the 520-8. I'm only "poaching" some extra parts that the PO had for this idea, if I proceed with it. For some reason he had 2 sets of the console/steering support tower sides and an extra 520 hood. So I started to formulate this idea in my head as I was getting a better idea of what parts I had available. I'll need to use the stock 417 steering column for this. 

 

Unfortunately I haven't run across that piece that holds the upper steering column bushing, and yes I would prefer to go with a bearing in there instead, so I might have to fab a bracket for that and/or do some welding - not a show-stopper. Hoping to not have to cut the steering column so I guess one early task would be to see if I can get that spring pin out. 

 

The existing 417 console and support structure is in rough shape, as are the wiring and gauges. If I stuck with that, I don't have a hood that fits, so part of the motivation is that I wouldn't have to buy a new hood, as well as re-wire all that.

 

Also, I already have several good mower tractors so I don't know that I need to put a deck on this one, but good to know there may be challenges with deck height on it. I'm a bit puzzled by that though. If the frame is the same as, say, my 416-H, and the tire heights are the same when inflated properly, why would the deck height be different?  

 

I've already had some "what the heck?" moments with these 48" decks, which I move around between my GT-1848, 416-H, and (less often) my 312-A , and have already swapped the gauge wheels to 7" on one of them. (I only use the 48" deck on the 312-A for "light" mowing - I have a 42" that needs some repairs that is a better match for the 12hp). I always make sure the "fork" on the Attach-A-Matic is over the crossbar - have made that mistake before and got some odd deck height results, not surprisingly now.

 

So anyway, mowing is not a concern on this project, at least not yet. I'd just like to make this back into a working tractor, to see if I can. 

[davem1111 2,030]

I took a little time to look at this tractor and some of the parts, and I see a pretty big challenge with this idea. 

 

The 416-H has "one piece" side tins for the hood stand/console mount:

 

 

 

However, the 520-H has 2 pieces per side, and I don't have the bottom pieces, only the top. So unless I get the bottom pieces, I'd have to cut off the top half of the existing 416-H tins, drill a bunch of holes to bolt on the 520 tops, and hope that I got everything lined up well enough so the hood would close and look right, as well as mounting the console on it:

 

 

 

The other challenge is a common one - I tried to get the steering wheel roll pin out, and it won't budge. I was trying to use a closely sized allen wrench or a bolt to hammer on, and they both bent. I suppose I could buy some proper roll pin drifts/punches but I don't have a warm fuzzy feeling that those would work either.  So if I want to pursue this I'm probably looking at cutting the steering column, which I hate to do. My welding skills aren't great, and I suppose I could just buy a new column but am trying to keep the budget as close to $0 as possible, here, working with what I have. Then again, if I stick with the 416-H hood stand tins, I don't have a hood that will fit so I'd have to buy one of those. Duh.  Guess I'll have to ponder this for a while.

[ebinmaine 67,633]

27 minutes ago, davem1111 said:

the 520-H has 2 pieces per side, and I don't have the bottom pieces, only the top. So unless I get the bottom pieces

That 520H doesn't have them eh?

 

28 minutes ago, davem1111 said:

I tried to get the steering wheel roll pin out, and it won't budge. I was trying to use a

 

Most tasks are easier with the right tool. 

In this case you really do NEED the correct GOOD quality punches.  

 

To remove the pin you'll likely need to "base"  the column against the wall or doorway. 

 

@JCM has done it successfully.  He may have pics.  

[Handy Don 12,237]

1 hour ago, davem1111 said:

suppose I could buy some proper roll pin drifts/punches but I don't have a warm fuzzy feeling that those would work either

Surprisingly, with good bracing, a few days of penetrant, the right punch, and a firm smack, those pins DO come out!

Using a flat-ended tool can mushroom the top of the pin somewhat making the pin harder to remove.

 

1 hour ago, davem1111 said:

side tins for the hood stand/console mount

I’ve only worked with the stands from the 500’s. The lower section, #1 in the diagram which i think of as the tunnel, is one piece integrated with cross-bracing welded in. I can tell you the upper sides have to go on in the right sequence or else you find yourself unable to reach places that need a bolt or nut and have to back up. 

 

Trying to make a 400 bottom work with 500 tops seems a very dicey proposition.

 

Believe it or not, I HAVE a 500 #1 bottom on a parts tractor that I am trying to unload. See the classifieds and PM me if we should discuss further!

[oliver2-44 9,761]

You can drill out that roll pin with a carbide drill bid in 5 minutes. I previously used an inexpensive glass cutting carbide spade looking bit. But they have redesigned the ones I previously bought at Home Depo and they are now junk. 

[JCM 9,177]

@davem1111  Check out under WH Tractors 420- LSE steering wheel removal for some suggestions removing the wheel. Slightly different on the the 420 in that it has a hub/ steering wheel adapter which secures the wheel and not the wheel to the shaft.

[davem1111 2,030]

10 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

11 hours ago, davem1111 said:
the 520-H has 2 pieces per side, and I don't have the bottom pieces, only the top. So unless I get the bottom pieces

 

 

That 520H doesn't have them eh?

 

 

Well, yes it does. I didn't want to start pulling things OFF that tractor that are already on it, before it finds its way to you. But if you don't care about those parts, that would solve that problem. 

 

I'm about to head out to Rural King for a few things - I'll see if they have any punches. I did hit the roll pin with a good dose of penetrant, and I'm not in any hurry. 

[ebinmaine 67,633]

13 minutes ago, davem1111 said:

Well, yes it does. I didn't want to start pulling things OFF that tractor that are already on it, before it finds its way to you. But if you don't care about those parts, that would solve that problem

I'm not looking for any sheet metal off that one Sir.   

Go for it. 

[Lee1977 6,670]

Take the tower off from the bottom and take it apart. then you can get the steering shaft in the vice to remove the pin.

Edited September 23, 2023 by Lee1977

[ebinmaine 67,633]

@davem1111 if you can't get the 520H wheel off don't hesitate to cut that shaft either. I can either weld it or add a coupler if needed.  

[davem1111 2,030]

2 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

@davem1111 if you can't get the 520H wheel off don't hesitate to cut that shaft either. I can either weld it or add a coupler if needed.  

 

Hah!  That steering wheel was not attached when I got it. I just stuck a long bolt through there so I could steer it to get it loaded.  Which makes me think:  If you wanted the reduction steering somewhat quickly, I could take that apart and ship it.  Front axle would probably be costly to ship but maybe not much more than the steering assembly.  But you'd probably want the front wheels at the same time as the axle...   

[davem1111 2,030]

Question about hydraulics:  I need to remove the hydraulic lines from the lift cylinder and maybe from the control box to get the old 417-H tower off.  Do these hydraulics need to be primed when put back together, or some bleeding procedure to clear air from the lines?

[ebinmaine 67,633]

1 hour ago, davem1111 said:

Question about hydraulics:  I need to remove the hydraulic lines from the lift cylinder and maybe from the control box to get the old 417-H tower off.  Do these hydraulics need to be primed when put back together, or some bleeding procedure to clear air from the lines?

 

I didn't prime the lines on my '75. 

I did add fluid as needed. 

[oliver2-44 9,761]

1 hour ago, davem1111 said:

Question about hydraulics:  I need to remove the hydraulic lines from the lift cylinder and maybe from the control box to get the old 417-H tower off.  Do these hydraulics need to be primed when put back together, or some bleeding procedure to clear air from the lines?

A few years ago I replaced the lift cylinder lines and rebuilt the cylinder on my C160. Started it up and worked the lift handle a few times, topped off the fluid and done. 

[Handy Don 12,237]

What they said.

A complete replacement of the oil in the lift circuit will take only a matter of seconds. Filling an empty lift cylinder takes a couple seconds more. A couple of lift cycles assures that any air pockets have been purged. A few low-load back and forth cycles moving the tractor will assure that the hydro pump/motor are not holding any air. Keeping the transaxle properly filled is the critical step.

[ebinmaine 67,633]

8 hours ago, davem1111 said:

 

Hah!  That steering wheel was not attached when I got it. I just stuck a long bolt through there so I could steer it to get it loaded.  Which makes me think:  If you wanted the reduction steering somewhat quickly, I could take that apart and ship it.  Front axle would probably be costly to ship but maybe not much more than the steering assembly.  But you'd probably want the front wheels at the same time as the axle...   

 

No worries on the shipping.  

I have no immediate plans for any parts of that so it can wait.  

 

It'll be just as good to move as a complete rolling chassis.  

 

 

[davem1111 2,030]

Old 417-H tower is off. Steering wheel still embedded in the tower top housing, tried to use a roll pin punch and it is still refusing to move, will probably have to cut the column.

 

Putting the K17 on the frame. Hoping to see if it runs before I get any farther.  Do I need anything other than power to the starter and a gasoline IV?