Wheel Horse B-80 4 Speed no longer cranks

[DarylJ 49]

Today I removed the Kohler K-181 from a Wheel Horse B-80 4 Speed and replaced it with another identical engine. The replacement engine hadn’t been used much since new and my old one was showing signs of needing to be rebuilt, so a good time to finally make the switch.  All went well, until the final step where I plugged in the two wire harness from the stator into the backside of the voltage regulator.  I decided to check to make sure the engine would crank over by turning the ignition switch on and into the crank position.  The engine cranked over as expected.  But, no movement on the ammeter….hmm, maybe I inadvertently plugged the stator wire into the voltage regulator incorrectly, perhaps flipped 180.  So, I flipped it 180 and tried cranking again.  Nothing happens. OK, must have had it plugged in correctly in the first place.  So, flipped it back again and tried cranking again.  Nothing.  Dead as can be. I’m now thinking I made a bonehead move by flipping the stator wires 180 on the voltage regulator, causing something to get toasted in the ignition system causing the engine to not crank over.  Is the voltage regulator capable of this?  I’m thinking not, as it’s part of the charge circuitry.  I’m having a problem with the start circuit, which is separate from the start circuit, correct?  Or, am I missing something here, and they are dependent on each other to function.  My next move is to bypass the safety switches (clutch and PTO on this tractor, no seat switch) to see if by any chance one of them coincidentally malfunctioned between the first and second times I tried cranking the engine.  Any advice is appreciated!

[squonk 41,121]

Check the connection right at the ammeter itself. That connection has caused countless Horses not to start. It's right next to the regulator connector and you may have bumped it.

[DarylJ 49]

Thanks squonk, will check it first thing in the morning.  Do you see any problem with my reversing the wires on the voltage regulator?

[squonk 41,121]

The 2 stator wires from the engine are AC voltage. It makes no difference what terminal they are on as long as it's the 2 terminals for the AC input. They are next to each other. The third terminal by itself is battery voltage wire. 

[rmaynard 15,483]

I believe that B-80 has a safety switch on the clutch pedal. If it is not depressed by the pedal, or has suddenly failed, you will get no voltage to the start solenoid. However, I am inclined to go with Mike on the ammeter. 

[953 nut 55,260]

 

12 hours ago, DarylJ said:

My next move is to bypass the safety switches (clutch and PTO on this tractor, no seat switch) to see if by any chance one of them coincidentally malfunctioned between the first and second times I tried cranking the engine.  Any advice is appreciated

Why is it that people seem to automatically blame the safety switches when they seldom fail to work properly?       

[Gasaholic 224]

2 hours ago, squonk said:

The 2 stator wires from the engine are AC voltage. It makes no difference what terminal they are on as long as it's the 2 terminals for the AC input. They are next to each other. The third terminal by itself is battery voltage wire. 

Depends on the connector plug - the straight-line plugs (old style 3 terminals in line) were AC wires on the 2 outside, with B+ output in the middle - The L-shaped connector (newer style) were as you said - 2 AC wires in the 2-pin row, and the B+ wire in the single pin slot.  the L-shape connector can only go on one way , the straight-line connector can plug in either way, but as noted as long as the 2 stator wires are on the 2 outer pins with the B+ output in the middle, it wont matter which way the connector is plugged in. 

 

Just make sure the terminals fit nice and snug on the pins - as they age it is easy for the "springy" tabs built into the terminals to weaken, crack or break off entirely and then you will have a poor connection leading to arcing and burning wires, but they are not going to affect the start circuit - ammeter wires if they are the same female spade terminals with plastic body connectors (AKA Packard terminals) they can have the same issues leading to intermittent problems like no-crank. (as can the switch connector termninals) so if you bump an old wire harness and suddenly have a no-crank (or wiggle terminals and it cranks) then you likely need new packard connector terminals. 

[DarylJ 49]

One problem solved, and another pops up!  First, the no crank issue: Checked the wire backside of the ammeter.  Nice and snug.  Next was to check the safety switches…..discovered the problem in a PTO switch terminal not getting good contact.  Once cleaned, the engine cranked!  As this tractor had been sitting for three years in an outside shed, I shouldn’t be surprised.  BUT, once the no-cranking issue gets resolved, a second problem arises: I now find there is no spark! What I’ve done thus far to troubleshoot: First was to check the points gap and scuff them with abrasive cloth.  Still no spark.  Next was to switch out the condenser. Still no spark, but the replacement condenser could be questionable, as it did come from the original running engine which had been sitting the past three years.  So, not ruling out the condenser yet until I can find a NOS Kohler condenser.  Or, is there a diagnostic test I can do on the condensers?  I do have a capacitance meter here, but not sure what the acceptable reading range would be for a condenser. What is acceptable?   Putting the condenser aside until I know how to check it for being defective or not, the coil was next on the list. Here is what I have done: First, there is voltage to the + terminal, 26 volts on my analog meter.  Not sure what that should be, but perhaps the voltage regulator is responsible for the reading.  Isn’t 26 volts a high reading for a 12v system?  Regardless, there is voltage to the + terminal.  Next, checked the resistance (ohms) at the coil with the multimeter.  Multimeter positive probe went to the spark plug wire terminal of the coil and the negative to the engine block.  4 ohms shown. This coil had been sitting unused for many years bolted to the replacement engine. Out of curiosity, I also checked the coil on the engine I had pulled.  Here, the coil read 13 ohms.  This coil had sitting for 3 years on the engine just pulled from the tractor.  Are both readings within acceptable range, or should I go with one instead of the other due to the disparity in these resistance readings?  

 

As my old Wheel Horses have been very reliable (have a half dozen of them) over the decades I have owned them, I have little experience in troubleshooting these types of issues, which I should view as a positive, but today I am kinda regretting not having had some similar experiences in the past with them from which to draw insight as to what is causing these issues today.  Once again, any suggestions are more than appreciated!

[pfrederi 17,741]

The 26 voltage reading is not accurate.   Disconnect the condenser it isn't needed to run (it makes the points last longer)...If it starts then you know condenser is bad replace it.. 

 

Coil tests

 

[Gasaholic 224]

If I got a 26v reading at the coil + side, I would be double checking my DVOM to make sure I am seeing 12V across battery terminals first. If you have your wiring hooked up right, key on, engine off, and seeing 26V at the coil + something definitely ain't right. 

 

I'd be suspicious of my DVOM meter if I got an outta whack reading , and double check it against a KNOWN  verified item , in this case, a known good 12V battery, to see if my meter reading was correct. If not, then I'd be in the market for a new meter, period. (and decent ones are cheap enough on Amazon... Though my Fluke was the best investment I ever made, even if I only used it a couple times a year, I'd still buy another if mine ever failed.) 

[DarylJ 49]

Condenser.  After writing my last post, immediately went to the parts house this AM and picked up a new condenser.  Installed it and now I have a healthy spark.  So, two bad condensers on hand before a third (new) one cured that problem.  But, learned a lot from fellow forum members here who know these tractors much much better than I do.  

 

Yesterday, I gave the carb a complete cleaning using carb cleaner.  Prior, the varnish inside was nearly black, glued onto most everything internally.  So, after these no-crank and no-spark issues, thought that would be it and it should be up and running.  Not yet…..while I am getting fuel to the fuel pump inlet port, no fuel pumps out the outlet port, either by cranking the engine or manually after removing the fuel pump and actuating the rear lever by hand.  This had been a new fuel pump (black plastic variety) three years ago, having been installed on the replaced engine. Fuel pump apparently was working on it, but now, not so much.  My past recollection with cam operated fuel pumps was they would pump fuel when manually operating the rear cam lever.  Not happening with this plastic fuel pump today.  And, manually operating the cam lever would also elicit a croaking sound from the pump.  This pump, barely any sound from it.  Certainly not a strong croaking sound.  I have no new one on hand, but before ordering one at the parts house, am I being overly critical of this fuel pump?   When the fuel line from pump to carb is disconnected, there is zero fuel that exits the fuel pump while the engine is cranking.  I am hoping this is the final issue with this old B-80.  

[953 nut 55,260]

5 hours ago, DarylJ said:

I am getting fuel to the fuel pump inlet port, no fuel pumps out the outlet port, either by cranking the engine or manually after removing the fuel pump and actuating the rear lever by hand.  This had been a new fuel pump (black plastic variety) three years ago,

If you had been using fuel with ethanol in it one or both of the valves in the pump could be failing to close.

5 hours ago, DarylJ said:

manually operating the cam lever would also elicit a croaking sound from the pump.  This pump, barely any sound from it.

Could be a diaphragm problem. I would suggest you replace it with an electric fuel pump. 

Edited September 13, 2023 by 953 nut
fat finger

[DarylJ 49]

Thanks. Been using only non-oxygenated premium fuel, and Stabil, but after 3 years on a cheap pump (<$15), I suspect it has failed, more than likely due to diaphragm failure.  953 nut, do you have a specific electric fuel pump you could recommend?  

[rmaynard 15,483]

Non-oxygenated is not the same as ethanol-free. 

[DarylJ 49]

Yes, there are many different blends of gasoline, some including oxygenates, some not, some containing ethanol, some not, some containing a variety of additives as prescribed by the retailer.  I use is “Non-oxygenated fuel. Contains no ethanol”, clearly labeled at the pump.  It’s the only option in my area other than “Contains 10% ethanol” or “E85”.

[953 nut 55,260]

23 hours ago, DarylJ said:

 953 nut, do you have a specific electric fuel pump you could recommend?

Here is a thread that will give you several 

 

[DarylJ 49]

Thank you. Of the two inexpensive pumps, Carbole seems to be preferred, although the other has fans as well. Durability seems to be the main objection, with some not working out of the box, while other reports of them being functional for up to 3 years.  The old pump had been working for much, much longer.  But, OEM US made pumps like this are long obsolete, too.  As I mentioned above, I purchased the “old” style pump three years ago, but by then it was made across the pond.  Three years later, and it’s kaput.  In the same thread, someone mentions installing a pulse pump and finding it to work fine. I had a pulse pump on an old Briggs 16hp engine for more than thirty years before it quit.  The new replacement pulse pumps are now made overseas, too.  Might have to flip a coin on which to buy…