C-160 Long Cranking/Starting Process Question

[TonyBer 71]

My C-160 cranks for too long before starting in my opinion.  It takes especially long after a few days of not running.  My thoughts are the fuel is taking a while to get there and I saw a gentleman post (can't find) a manual primer bulb to help this process. Any information or other ideas for fixes for this?  Is the fuel pump getting weak and or should be replaced or should I install a primer in line?

[lynnmor 7,307]

Any tractor may benefit from installing a primer bulb, especially those with the gas tank lower than the carburetor.  Yes, a fuel pump that has leaking check valves will not pump well.  An electric fuel pump is another idea that will work since the carburetor will be filled almost immediately.  Lots of options, but first make sure that your fuel hoses are in good condition with absolutely no air leaks.  Just remember that the thing worked well when new and returning it to a like new condition is all that is really needed.

[peter lena 8,631]

@TonyBer  agree with  @lynnmor  on the fix /  intended function of your set up , probably do a good carb clean out / rebuild , added fuel filter , have these on all my  engines , in a  vertical  spot just before carb  https://www.amazon.com/MINOOM-Check-Valve-Inline-Gasoline/dp/B0BYMF6HXD/ref=asc_df_B0BYMF6HXD/?tag=hyprod-2  , you might find it locally  at an auto parts , I use clear vinyl fuel line  so I can  SEE THE HELD , STAGED FUEL , GOING TO CARB , would bet you have a collective amount of issues on your tank to carb . time for a re do , would also check tank for debris , fuel valve  , pete

[953 nut 55,260]

55 minutes ago, lynnmor said:

first make sure that your fuel hoses are in good condition with absolutely no air leaks.

Most problems are the result of deferred maintenance, things that should have been done last year but weren't. One other thing to consider is the gas you are using. If you are using gas with 10% Ethanol in it please STOP. Ethanol will cause problems in your fuel system. You can find a gas station near you that sells ethanol-free gas (recreational gas) by using this web site;  https://www.pure-gas.org/

[Ed Kennell 38,181]

The long crank time to get fuel to the carb is usually a problem with the "tank under the seat" tractors.     The c-160 tank is about same elev. as the carb.

Like others have said,  clean and or replace all fuel hoses, filters, tank petcocks and the screen in the tank.

Check for any air leaks around the carb.throttle shaft and bolting flange by spraying WD40 around those areas while running.   If the engine revs up, air is leaking in which may be defeating the closed choke during startup.

[TonyBer 71]

Thanks all....going to redo the fuel line and filters to start and follow other advice as well.  I do have some ethanol free gas I'll start using as well for an old Honda Scrambler I have.  

[kpinnc 12,065]

I'm just gonna basically repeat what has already been said: some type of external fuel pump (I use primer bulbs and electric on different tractors) will transform how quickly your tractors crank. My 1991 520-H cranks literally as soon as it turns over. Same with other machines as well.

 

Aside from the quicker starts, this translates into starters and batteries clearly lasting longer than before. 

 

 

Edited September 9, 2023 by kpinnc

[JoeM 7,874]

don't go cheap on the primer bulb either. I had one old new stock split and dump a bunch of gas on the shop floor overnight. got these on the jungle site and are new good quality.

 

One thing to mention on the fuel thing I notices if I run the machines at least once a week it is not an issue. 

Like @kpinnc says going over the electric starter circuit is a must.

I know those starters can get tired and cause a long crack issue too.

 

 

[TonyBer 71]

2 hours ago, Joey Small Block said:

don't go cheap on the primer bulb either. I had one old new stock split and dump a bunch of gas on the shop floor overnight. got these on the jungle site and are new good quality.

 

One thing to mention on the fuel thing I notices if I run the machines at least once a week it is not an issue. 

Like @kpinnc says going over the electric starter circuit is a must.

I know those starters can get tired and cause a long crack issue too.

 

 

Does it matter inline where I place the prime pump?   There is an inline filter too.

 

[Gasaholic 224]

my C-100 starts up in less than a second, and it still needs maintenance (planned for this fall) I had a checklist I followed for long crank times (2-3 seconds of cranking or more) starting with checking if it had FRESH fuel (less than 30-60 days since pumped at gas station, and this was BEFORE Ethanol fuels started showing up - and Leaded gas was still a thing.) .. Rather than write a novel, I'll make bullet point list: 

1) Fresh gas

2) Good, properly gapped, correct spark plug (H10 for 10-16HP K series & Magnum cast iron singles, .030 gap) 

3) Pop off air cleaner and make sure choke was fully closing (no slop - even a fraction of a degree "open" can cause a start up issue.) also check air filter (Too much gas/not enough air can cause a hard start as well!, so I'd also look for wet gas dripping out of carb..)

4) Compression Test (minimum 75 PSI) - Otherwise, valves, head bolts, head gasket, ring wear, warped heads may be suspects. If it can't "Blow", it probably doesn't "Suck" very good either. 

5) DVOM on negative side of coil measuring for full battery voltage (12.8V down to no more than about 9V while cranking) - at the same time if less than 12.8V , battery needs charged, or there's a voltage drop (often at switch or connector - I have had switches fail to deliver full 12V on the start position, but just fine on run, so they'd fire right up as soon as you let go the key)

6) usually checked with #3, a good strong blue spark on a spark tester with a 1/4" / 6mm Gap *while connected to spark plug* (marginal ignition systems can fire a spark tester, and fire a plug, but not under compression!) - any suspicion here, the point cover is popped off and points checked.

7) if it has set for a while without running, verify fuel pump can pump enough gas (flow rate) - typically can fill a quart bottle in less than a minute (Though it is a lot of cranking, so I'd use a smaller 8 Oz bottle filled in less than 15 seconds)

8) if fuel pump flow checks out, leave outlet hose unhooked for a few minutes and see if the level of fuel in the hose drops (check valves leaking) and if they leak just a little, I'll also check the carburetor - If the float needle is marginal, sometimes it allows fuel from the carb bowl to flow back as the fuel pump loses charge. 

9) finally, if everything else checks out, I'll do a cranking amps test on the starter (I forget what my amps were but if it went over 15-20 amps or so, I'd be looking at compression release, voltage drops, and or considering possibly worn starter brushes, etc.) - High amps cranking means it'll not be cranking as robustly as it might be expected (Similar to low battery voltage) and often related to excessively low voltages on negative side of coil (through points) 

 

This is just from memory, so i may have skipped or forgotten a step or two - When you got used to doing these checks 3-4 times a day (if not more) every day during busy season, it became second nature... so often I'll be doing these checks even if the problem is not a "long crank" complaint. 

 

Long story short, I never found any need to add a primer bulb to any Horse I worked on, as I pretty much always located and fixed (as long as the customer OK'd it , otherwise they'd say "I'll live with it") 

Edited September 9, 2023 by Gasaholic

[JoeM 7,874]

2 hours ago, TonyBer said:

Does it matter inline where I place the prime pump?

Low and convenient. It can be before or after the filter, will work either way. 

[TonyBer 71]

On 9/9/2023 at 3:06 PM, Gasaholic said:

my C-100 starts up in less than a second, and it still needs maintenance (planned for this fall) I had a checklist I followed for long crank times (2-3 seconds of cranking or more) starting with checking if it had FRESH fuel (less than 30-60 days since pumped at gas station, and this was BEFORE Ethanol fuels started showing up - and Leaded gas was still a thing.) .. Rather than write a novel, I'll make bullet point list: 

1) Fresh gas

2) Good, properly gapped, correct spark plug (H10 for 10-16HP K series & Magnum cast iron singles, .030 gap) 

3) Pop off air cleaner and make sure choke was fully closing (no slop - even a fraction of a degree "open" can cause a start up issue.) also check air filter (Too much gas/not enough air can cause a hard start as well!, so I'd also look for wet gas dripping out of carb..)

4) Compression Test (minimum 75 PSI) - Otherwise, valves, head bolts, head gasket, ring wear, warped heads may be suspects. If it can't "Blow", it probably doesn't "Suck" very good either. 

5) DVOM on negative side of coil measuring for full battery voltage (12.8V down to no more than about 9V while cranking) - at the same time if less than 12.8V , battery needs charged, or there's a voltage drop (often at switch or connector - I have had switches fail to deliver full 12V on the start position, but just fine on run, so they'd fire right up as soon as you let go the key)

6) usually checked with #3, a good strong blue spark on a spark tester with a 1/4" / 6mm Gap *while connected to spark plug* (marginal ignition systems can fire a spark tester, and fire a plug, but not under compression!) - any suspicion here, the point cover is popped off and points checked.

7) if it has set for a while without running, verify fuel pump can pump enough gas (flow rate) - typically can fill a quart bottle in less than a minute (Though it is a lot of cranking, so I'd use a smaller 8 Oz bottle filled in less than 15 seconds)

8) if fuel pump flow checks out, leave outlet hose unhooked for a few minutes and see if the level of fuel in the hose drops (check valves leaking) and if they leak just a little, I'll also check the carburetor - If the float needle is marginal, sometimes it allows fuel from the carb bowl to flow back as the fuel pump loses charge. 

9) finally, if everything else checks out, I'll do a cranking amps test on the starter (I forget what my amps were but if it went over 15-20 amps or so, I'd be looking at compression release, voltage drops, and or considering possibly worn starter brushes, etc.) - High amps cranking means it'll not be cranking as robustly as it might be expected (Similar to low battery voltage) and often related to excessively low voltages on negative side of coil (through points) 

 

This is just from memory, so i may have skipped or forgotten a step or two - When you got used to doing these checks 3-4 times a day (if not more) every day during busy season, it became second nature... so often I'll be doing these checks even if the problem is not a "long crank" complaint. 

 

Long story short, I never found any need to add a primer bulb to any Horse I worked on, as I pretty much always located and fixed (as long as the customer OK'd it , otherwise they'd say "I'll live with it") 

Thanks for all the great info. I ran new line today with a primer and filter.  I'm going to replace the fuel pump next.  Any particular K341 fuel pumps the best to get?  Thanks!

[ebinmaine 67,531]

On 9/24/2023 at 10:42 PM, TonyBer said:

Thanks for all the great info. I ran new line today with a primer and filter.  I'm going to replace the fuel pump next.  Any particular K341 fuel pumps the best to get?  Thanks!

 

 

@TonyBer

Did you rectify the long crank situation OK? 

 

[TonyBer 71]

23 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

 

 

@TonyBer

Did you rectify the long crank situation OK? 

 

Yes...have, new lines,  primer bulb and a rebuilt on fuel pump.  Perfect now.