C160 auto engine cutting off

[manant 57]

I have a C160 with the Kohler k341 engine.

On a hot day last week I mowed for about an hour with everything going great and the engine suddenly sounded like it was starving for fuel and conked out.  When I went to restart it everything was dead. No solenoid click, no starter, no nothing. I checked to see that I had disengaged the pto and I had.  After a few minutes I tried again and it started right up.  It ran for maybe 10 minutes and conked out again.  This happened several times.  I checked the fuel tank vent hole - clear, checked the fuel pump - working, removed the carb and cleaned the vents and ports and put it back on.  Started right up and ran for 10 minutes.  After a few more cycles I finally got it back to my shed.  I do not think I have a fuel problem.

I checked to spark plug - gap at  .035 and looked OK.  Checked to points - a little pitted so I temporarily filed them down and set the gap.  I static timed using a mulitmeter.  The engine started and sounded great. I adjusted the power and idle screws to smooth it out some.  Went out to mow and after 30 minutes or so the cycle started again.

I had 12.4 volts on the battery but it seemed weak so I hauled it off to the auto store and load tested it - failed under load so put out about $70 for a new one.  

I have had some problems with my after market ignition switch because the screw threads are so fine the nut tends to cross thread and work loose.  I had an old oem switch which tested fine so I put that in and it worked.

Went out to mow - still have my problem!

I will do a solenoid test next. Then check the coil. Also check the spark plug wire and try to run down grounding problems.  This is beginning to irritate me!  Anyone have any suggestions?

[ebinmaine 67,449]

 

Three things pop to mind. 

 

Coil. 

 

Condenser. 

 

Bad ground on Voltage Regulator.  

[ineedanother 1,369]

26 minutes ago, manant said:

I will do a solenoid test next. Then check the coil. 

Skip the solenoid. Not your problem. I suspect coil shorting internally when it gets hot and you're losing spark. If you have a spare, swapping it would be the easiest way to r/o.

[JimSraj 429]

Recently had the same trouble with a k301 on a 1967 T1267. Finally replaced coil, points (they were cooked) and condenser. So far seems to have solved the problem. 🤞 NTW, the replaced parts came with a rebuild kit from a supplier in Maine and probably didn’t have 30 hours on them. Replacements are from NAPA. 

[Wheel-N-It 2,968]

I'm leaning more towards the coil

[JimSraj 429]

Try an in line spark tester. When the tractor shuts down put in the coil to plug wire and see if it lights while cranking. If not you probably have a bad coil. 

[manant 57]

Thanks for all the input

I am leaning more toward a short somewhere in the circuit.  If it is the coil, the engine should still crank, just not fire, however sometimes I have nothing.

I did not think it was the solenoid but I just put that on the list to check.

I will first check the coil and use the in line spark tester when it happens again.

I was going to get new points and condenser anyway, but was waiting to see if the coil was bad so I could get it all at one time. ISAVETRACTORS has a package with all three items plus a new spark plug wire.

Again thanks for the input, I will post again when I have a solution.

[ineedanother 1,369]

Likely two separate electrical problems. A bad solenoid wouldn't cause it to stall once it's running. If it won't crank at all when starting it, check to see that you have power to the small terminal on the solenoid with the key in the start position. Clean all of your grounds really well and make sure your solenoid has a good strong ground to the block as well as back to the battery.

 

It sounds like you would serve it well to start cleaning all electrical connections and I would probably start with the ignition switch (and grounds).

[JimSraj 429]

Not to knock the parts from iSavetractors but the ones I replaced were from Norman and they had less than 25 or 30 hours on them. I got the replacements from NAPA..  Thanks to Squonk for the NAPA part #s. The fellow that mows for me at my camp, when I’m not there, said it ran great with the new ignition parts. Fingers crossed that continues. 🤞🤞

[ineedanother 1,369]

On 8/14/2023 at 8:12 PM, JimSraj said:

Not to knock the parts from iSavetractors but the ones I replaced were from Norman and they had less than 25 or 30 hours on them. I got the replacements from NAPA..  Thanks to Squonk for the NAPA part #s. The fellow that mows for me at my camp, when I’m not there, said it ran great with the new ignition parts. Fingers crossed that continues. 🤞🤞

Hey @JimSraj, if you have the parts and can tell what failed, Norman might want to know given that it was so few hours of run time. From my dealings with him I don't think he wants to be marketing substandard parts. 

[JimSraj 429]

I did call and leave a message on his phone but never got a call back. Kind of disappointing really. I had a good impression of iSavetractors after my purchase of the rebuild kit. It was my first rebuild and everything went together well. The engine started right up and ran very well until this issue. I spoke with Norman a couple times during the process and he seemed to be a good guy. 

[ineedanother 1,369]

2 minutes ago, JimSraj said:

I did call and leave a message on his phone but never got a call back. Kind of disappointing really. I had a good impression of iSavetractors after my purchase of the rebuild kit. It was my first rebuild and everything went together well. The engine started right up and ran very well until this issue. I spoke with Norman a couple times during the process and he seemed to be a good guy. 

Yeah, that's not good. I'm just a consumer like you but when I've called I've always been able to talk to someone without waiting. Glad you tried, not glad that you didn't get a good result  We need good vendors and like you said, NAPA has been one of those for many of us.

[JimSraj 429]

I did get to speak with a woman who was very nice but couldn’t offer any help after I left a message on Normans phone. I have a number that I guess is his direct phone. His voice on the recording. I should probably give him another call. 

[manant 57]

I may have found the problem.

 

I checked the resistance in the coil and it varied from one test to another.  If I left the ohm meter connected the resistance degraded over time. That may have been the engine stopping problem but not the failure to crank problem. I decided to bite the bullet and order a new coil, points and condenser.

While waiting for the new parts to arrive I started checking wiring grounds and continuity.  Everything checked out until I got to the rectifier.  I had replaced it with a used Ebay item some time ago. I find that the stator leads are just barely long enough to reach the rectifier so I made 2" pigtails to lengthen the leads so I could wire it from the seat side of the console.

The photo below shows one of the pigtails I removed yesterday.  The female connector was fried and the insulation melted. The other photo shows one AC spade connector on the rectifier, and it had corroded away, or melted and the rectifier also fried.   What would fry these components?  I read somewhere that you need to disconnect the rectifier if you jump start the tractor.

I ordered a new one and await its arrival.  I hope that solves my other problem.

[ebinmaine 67,449]

2 minutes ago, manant said:

read somewhere that you need to disconnect the rectifier if you jump start the tractor.

I've not heard that about a Wheelhorse and have never done it.  Also never had a problem.   

 

2 minutes ago, manant said:

What would fry these components? 

 

Pure age can damage or kill a VR. 

Yours clearly has a bad ground. The overspray is the indicator.  

When I build a new wiring harness I add several more grounds. 

VR is always one. 

Run a ground from one of the mounting bolts to the Battery Negative directly.  

 

 

Very nice work finding the issue!

 

 

 

[manant 57]

Thanks for your input.  I did run a ground wire from the rectifier mounting bolt to a bolt on the frame, but not to the battery post.  When I install the new rectifier I will run a ground wire to the battery.

[ebinmaine 67,449]

2 minutes ago, manant said:

Thanks for your input.  I did run a ground wire from the rectifier mounting bolt to a bolt on the frame, but not to the battery post.  When I install the new rectifier I will run a ground wire to the battery.

 

We've done a half dozen or more either complete or mechanical restorations here. 

One of the things I've noticed failing across the board is ground. 

These are DC systems. No ground is ... No circuit.  

 

I now run individual ground wires from every major component and circuit.  

Engine. VR. Gauges. Front and/or rear lights. 

All connected to the Battery directly.  

 

[manant 57]

Do you combine all of the ground wires into a single termination connector at the battery?

 

[ebinmaine 67,449]

8 minutes ago, manant said:

Do you combine all of the ground wires into a single termination connector at the battery?

 

 

I've considered it. 

I keep them separate and use a slightly longer battery terminal bolt. 

It makes it easier for me to handle them. 

 

[Handy Don 12,215]

5 hours ago, manant said:

My immediate take on this was a poor connection that, given the current passing through it, heated up dramatically and failed.

I’d suspect moisture/corrosion as the cause of the poor connection.

[rmaynard 15,436]

19 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

...I now run individual ground wires from every major component and circuit.

When I was younger, just learning about why lights and other things didn't work on cars, my father told me that car manufacturers started running dedicated ground wires to each individual component on a car. That wire runs back to the main ground near the battery. Body grounds were found to be unreliable. 

[manant 57]

What gauge wire do you use for all the grounds?

[ebinmaine 67,449]

12 minutes ago, manant said:

What gauge wire do you use for all the grounds?

For all the small stuff I use 14 gauge for ground.  

[rmaynard 15,436]

25 minutes ago, manant said:

What gauge wire do you use for all the grounds?

Whatever gauge wire is used for the 12volts is what's used for grounds.

[Handy Don 12,215]

5 hours ago, rmaynard said:

When I was younger, just learning about why lights and other things didn't work on cars, my father told me that car manufacturers started running dedicated ground wires to each individual component on a car. That wire runs back to the main ground near the battery. Body grounds were found to be unreliable. 

Our ’66 VW Beetle was a unibody (i.e. welded together) and it’s grounding was terrible (and not helped by being a 6v system). Dim headlights, slow wipers, no reaction when turning the key to start even with a new battery.