Buyer's Remorse RJ 58

[tractorchick 399]

Is there an RJ58 manual or parts diagram available?  Again, I'll get more detailed photos this weekend and post them.  

 

I appreciate all of the encouragement!  

[nylyon-(Admin) 7,278]

 

[tractorchick 399]

1 hour ago, nylyon said:

 

Thank you!  Printing it right now. 

[tractorchick 399]

It looks like 125-0

Am I looking in the right place?  I don't see anything in the manual with that number.  

 

 

 

 

[stevasaurus 22,749]

Kate...I think that is an A 25-0...if so...that is "A" = January 25th 1960.  "A" is January...25 is the 25th day... and "0" is 1960.  That means you have a #5010.  I still want to see how the brake band is mounted...that is the test.  The #5003 is the right transmission for the RJ-58.  The #5010 is the right transmission for the 1960 & 1961's.  

  OK...that being said...I still want to see how that side plate looks with the brake band mount.  That means a lot about how the linkage is fabricated.

   Don't worry about what Wallfish is saying yet.  There is only about 5 of us on Red Square that can see through the casting to see what is inside.  The early #5003 had a mushroom gear that was an 8 tooth upper and 44 tooth bottom.  The bull gear matched the 8 tooth upper.  This was a weak situation and Wheel Horse changed that tooth configuration to the popular 11/44toothed mushroom gear and a different bull gear to match.  

   In the #5010's, they kept the 11/44 mushroom gear and the bull gear, but they changed the bull gear to a bolt on to the differential and they changed the brake drum shaft outer bearing to a needle bearing.  They also changed the brake band mount to a 45 degree angle and changed the push linkage to the pull linkage we see in the suburban's.  That changed how the linkage worked the tension pulley.   I would not worry about any of this really-at the moment.  Show me the brake band mount...that is the clue we need to know.  Let's not worry about the inside of the trans right now.  This all depends on how correct you want to make this.  

   

 

Edited August 4, 2023 by stevasaurus

[c-series don 8,708]

Is this guy @stevasaurus a wealth of information or what? He never fails to amaze me with his transmission knowledge! @tractorchick As I’m sure you already know that you’re in good hands here, seriously the nicest and most knowledgeable people are here on Red Square! 👍🏻

[oliver2-44 9,756]

14 hours ago, Horse Newbie said:

@oliver2-44,

Whatever happened to that , I think it was a 953 with the oil bath air cleaner, that I put on a pallet and shipped to you from NC ?

Hopefully it’s next in line. The engines been soaking with diesel and is now free and I recently got  a correct transmission to replace the missing one. Sorry to side track your thread Kate. 

[Horse Newbie 7,070]

Yeah, sorry @tractorchick… my bad .

[tractorchick 399]

I'll get those pictures, @stevasaurus!  Thanks for the helpful info!

[wallfish 17,000]

Depending upon how Factory Correct Kate wants to go with this tractor there are a few different options.

-Change the entire trans to an RJ trans and the correct clutch arm.

-Change the brake band side trans plate with one from an RJ and use the RJ clutch arm

-Cut and weld the brake band tab to the vertical RJ position and use a RJ clutch arm

Use a Suburban belt guard and idler pulley and use it like it is.

Modify a brake band by drilling 2 mount holes and change the clutch arm to RJ although the brake will not grab as tight. That will allow for the correct belt guard to just use of that trans. 2 holes and trim the end off.

Maybe do something temporary until finding and changing to an RJ trans? Like changing the idler to a V groove pulley and using some little wire fingers to guide the belt so it releases the belt correctly and the gears don't grind.

 

It's a 60 trans according to the casting date so the brake band tab is definitely going to be at a 45 like a 60 Suburban is otherwise there wouldn't be any need to modify the pedal to push the rod. The rod for the brake band points up on a 45 too and the clutch arm on it now is from 1960 . This can all be seen from the outside of the trans case and in the pics provided already.

 

 

On 8/3/2023 at 4:51 PM, tractorchick said:

 I don't see anything in the manual with that number.

Those numbers are just a casting date from the foundry and won't be in any of the manuals.

 

[stevasaurus 22,749]

@wallfish is absolutely correct in his post #35.  Those are the options depending on what is there.  Yes, that casting date would suggest the casting is for a suburban (1960/1961)...but what if the company used newer castings to replace cracked or broken RJ castings.  The casting is the same.  What I see in the 1st pictures Kate showed is the flat pulley (not original) that would be used for the 5003..  Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the grooved pulley is on the 5010's.  That is why we need to see the brake band mount.

   Kate, I did not want to get into this debate about the transmissions.  Right now, if it works, don't fix it...it is the least of the issues.  The love comes with pounding out dents in the hood.  Getting rid of rivets around the gas tank.  Especially getting the shields and drive belt guard.  

[stevasaurus 22,749]

Can I say this???  After giving all this some thought...here is the deal.  These never were Corvettes.  You do not have numbers matching what left the factory on parts, engine, transmission, etc.  The only original RJ-58 is going to come from a one owner, barn find...and maybe not even then.  Putting one together that is factory correct is probably the best you can wish for.  In other words, adding a correct seat is not original parts to that horse.  A RJ-58 with the correct parts can be show quality...nothing wrong with that.  Just something to think about...hope you understand what I am getting at.  

[Sparky-(Admin) 21,318]

4 minutes ago, stevasaurus said:

Can I say this???  After giving all this some thought...here is the deal.  These never were Corvettes.  You do not have numbers matching what left the factory on parts, engine, transmission, etc.  The only original RJ-58 is going to come from a one owner, barn find...and maybe not even then.  

 
Couldn’t agree more! 

[stevasaurus 22,749]

I am going to add one more issue about the Wheel Horse transmission of the era.  Wheel Horse made some changes with their transmission starting in 1958 and 1959.  
   When they did, they used Service Bulletins.  They did not change the transmission numbers.  The #5003 went through (what I think is 4 changes) and kept the #5003.  In 1960, they changed the brake band angle and the linkage, but not the inner gears...#5010.  Again, when they made a change, they did it with a Service Bulletin...ie.the bolt on bull gear on the differential.

   The big change came when Wheel Horse went to the 2 piece transmission.  #5007.  After that any change got a new number.  ie...the #5025 had a different sized drain or fill plug from the #5007.  They had the suction problem with the shift rails and got to the #5053 transmission.  I know...more information then what you wanted to know, but what happened is part of the history of Wheel Horse.  

   When you do finally get to take this RJ-58 to a show,  Talking about how Wheel Horse evolved is how small companies made America.  

[Racinbob 11,082]

From what I'm seeing in the idler, the belt and the linkage somebody didn't understand what they needed to do. I would suggest doing what ever is needed to match things up to whatever side plate you have. I have a hunch it's a 5003. Either way it's pretty simple and the parts are out there.

[tractorchick 399]

Believe it or not.... there are collectors of other brands who are extremely critical of not having the correct parts on a machine.  UGH!  I don't want to be one of those people!  Yes, I will enjoy it no matter what pieces or parts are right or wrong.  But I did get some more photos.  I don't know if this is what you are looking for:  

 

For sure I need to get in there and clean up.  

 

[wallfish 17,000]

2 hours ago, tractorchick said:

 I don't know if this is what you are looking for:  

He was looking for that tab on the trans that holds the brake band. It is at a 45 deg angle and not 90 deg like an RJ.

It's a 1960 Suburban trans.  Modified pedal and modified clutch arm to try and make it work like a Suburban does. The RJ was a little different in the set up. Doesn't look too bad to reverse those mods.

I'll edit some of your pics to show you what you can do to get it closer to an RJ and then you can find an RJ trans at your leisure until the right one is found or if you even wish to.

 

One thing about WH (and especially the early models) is WH themselves kind of modified some stuff as they went along.

 

Here's an RJ brake band and arm. Notice the mounting tab for the brake band is in a different location. Lower and a different angle.

Nothing on the clutch arm above the 3/8 rod the arm is on that goes to the belt side idler pulley

 

 

 

1960 400 Suburban trans brake band and clutch arm

Edited August 10, 2023 by wallfish

[wallfish 17,000]

Of coarse replacing the trans would (Might) be the best option.

Couple of changes to make that trans work like an RJ. Not too difficult to do

 

[wallfish 17,000]

[tractorchick 399]

Soooo......  I don't have a cutter or a welder.  I have an impact wrench and various tools from the church thrift store.  But I'm going to print this off and study it.  I am grateful to you for the terrific suggestions and photos.  I am a visual person, so that is just perfect for me!  I think when I take it apart, it will be clearer.  I think it will just stay as is as far as the transmission goes at least for the time being.   I'll keep you all posted!

 

 

 

 

[wallfish 17,000]

Ah, we're going to need to get you some tools or help out. You should be able to run that trans the way it is mow but it won't take an RJ belt guard.

I'd say get it running and driving like it is and fall in love with it !!!! Then the nurturing to get it more "factory" may occur.

Change the engine and use a 2.5" A (1/2")  belt pulley on it.

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/phoenix-standard-a-type-3-4-steel-drive-pulley-2-1-2-in-od

 

That flat idler should be changed to a 1/2" groove idler too if using like it is. This is the smallest one I could find doing a quick search

https://www.ebay.com/itm/126042547369?hash=item1d58b8a4a9:g:GHwAAOSwlW1kz9Bz&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAAwNnwnqGyIk0ToseQRw6hZIW2o%2FsviLDGr9PvLmjS0sqK%2FOwU1G71TP2ofusfZfjrP4ytzwEvliQ%2FnhvmGy6CMG7rYlxT9Z2mpZPRKiWTF%2Bk3UgpRE%2BL4kjt%2FV7e06DQ2lgaK385mf1eGEYbtba8W59W2hEiVUsTQkM%2B2JzTo9rfWVyIvWTvr8oII6vrS3NW7vZvjnj5r7KPHwr9APiKQaHAYJHQaOcyo1oJ4pJYSurcwJW%2FcqF%2FU7kwYGXyRo%2FpkMQ%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR5rKiKK8Yg

 

Once you have the engine and pulleys going, we can help you to get the belt to slip for clutching so the gears don't grind while shifting without the need for a suburban belt guard. But the belt will be open

 

We work on them right there in the field at the big Wheel Horse show if you find you can make it back there. Might be able to find all the stuff you need to "factory it" right there from the vendors too. So that's another option

Edited August 11, 2023 by wallfish

[stevasaurus 22,749]

Kate, I just went through this thread again.  I wanted to see how helpful it might be for your RJ.  The information in here is priceless.  There are lots of pictures of parts of the transmissions, Lane's restoration (especially shows the linkage), and other little goodies=like tools for the process.  Check it out.  

 

[tractorchick 399]

Thanks guys!  You're the best!

[Pullstart 62,902]

On 8/10/2023 at 2:19 PM, tractorchick said:

Believe it or not.... there are collectors of other brands who are extremely critical of not having the correct parts on a machine.

ummmm that’d be me!  

 

 

[wallfish 17,000]

5 hours ago, Pullstart said:

ummmm that’d be me!  

Yeah right!

That's why we're going to vote you in as the Captain of the factory correctness police!

Your first assignment is to go over these. Let me know your assessment of anything out of place.