308-8 Magnum M8 PTO

[TC10284 111]

I have a 308-8 red hood with Kohler Magnum M8. I don't have a model or serial since the sticker is in front of the seat and numbers are worn off. 

 

When I bought it, it was missing the pto clutch plate, the pto bell, the pto rod, the mule drive, and the rest of the parts for the pto. I think I have most, if they will fit... 

 

Does anyone know if a clutch plate off either a 300, 400, or 500 series with larger engine (Kohler or Onan 12hp+) would work? I tried a spare one I had laying around, but it seemed like the bolt holes didn't line up properly. But it was getting dark so I couldn't see well. 

 

Also, it looks like there is a key missing off the output shaft of the motor. Without it, the sleeve adapter kind of won't have much to ride on

Does anyone know if there is a key for that output shaft?

 

Last question, what is the best way to re-glue a clutch disc to the metal part of the pto clutch plate? 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,046]

7 hours ago, TC10284 said:

I have a 308-8 red hood with Kohler Magnum M8. I don't have a model or serial since the sticker is in front of the seat and numbers are worn off.

308-8 produced for 3 model years

1986 models 21-08K801 and 21-08K802 

1987 model 21-08K803

1988 model 21-08K804

If the engine is original post the Kohler serial number to identify the year Kohler made the engine.

 

When I bought it, it was missing the pto clutch plate, the pto bell, the pto rod, the mule drive, and the rest of the parts for the pto. I think I have most, if they will fit.

The mule drive is part of the mower deck - not the tractor

 

Does anyone know if a clutch plate off either a 300, 400, or 500 series with larger engine (Kohler or Onan 12hp+) would work? I tried a spare one I had laying around, but it seemed like the bolt holes didn't line up properly. But it was getting dark so I couldn't see well. 

Believe they are the same except for the pto hoop and the lower pivot bracket for the hoop on the two cylinder models.

 

Also, it looks like there is a key missing off the output shaft of the motor. Without it, the sleeve adapter kind of won't have much to ride on

Does anyone know if there is a key for that output shaft?

The transmission drive pulley is keyed to the shaft and the pto inner race/sleeve is bolted to the drive pulley with the clutch plate.

 

Last question, what is the best way to re-glue a clutch disc to the metal part of the pto clutch plate? 

 

[ineedanother 1,369]

It looks like @gwest_ca gave you your answers but I'll add that the plates and bells I have are either 6" or 6 3/4" OD but both should work for you. The newer, larger ones just have more lining and might engage differently, or might have been for larger HP motors and ground engaging equipment, IDK.

 

Here is a recent thread that @davem1111 started about replacing the linings...

 

[TC10284 111]

I'll see if I can get some pics tomorrow. So far my only concern is a possible key for the engine output shaft that goes under the race bearing. The rest I think I have as spare parts, except for maybe the PTO half hoop. I'll have to look at see. I think all of my parts tractors are Onan models. 

[clueless 3,001]

I think the 8hp has a smaller diameter PTO, shaft 3/4 inch than the 10,12,14,16hp so the whole assembly is smaller.

[76c12091520h 3,620]

All the rotating pieces of the PTO assembly are the same regardless of the shaft size with the exception of the race that slides over the crankshaft. Outer pulley and PTO clutch measure 6 3/4" on all horizontal shaft tractors from the early ( 73 + - )  seventies until the end.

[TC10284 111]

Here's what I have... 

I took an OD measurement of a pto shaft from a K301 and it looks to be 1.00". 

I measured the shaft on the Magnum M8 and get 0.96 or 0.97"

 

Also, notice that the holes from a pto clutch don't exactly line up. The pto clutches I have are from another K series engine off another WH. 

 

What size of race bearing for the shaft  do I need? 

 

I forgot to get the serial number off the engine. I'll get that tomorrow. 

 

Pics:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/otFGKbLbcYPV294k8

 

Edited July 20, 2023 by TC10284

[TC10284 111]

Here's the engine serial:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/3wH5sZ1z3fBFqYjt6

 

Also, from what I can tell from Parts Tree, the clutch plate is a different P/N, so that makes sense.

 

Edited July 20, 2023 by TC10284

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,046]

Engine was made in 1986 so the tractor is a 1986 or 1987 model.

1986 models 21-08K801 and 21-08K802 

1987 model 21-08K803

 

[TC10284 111]

So I've found out that the clutch disc plate will fit, but when I put the race bearing on, it causes it to misalign and I cannot mount the retainer clips. The PTO shaft is a lot smaller on the M8 than a K301 or M10/M12 that I have compared to on my other tractors. Yet the race bearing P/N on partstree is the same for a 308-8 and 312-8. 

Does anyone else know if this is correct for the PTO shaft of the M8? 

 

Additionally, I've found that some of the aftermarket clutch disc plates are not thick enough and will bend the retainers when trying to mount. I'd have to use a washer on each bolt, behind the retainer, to attempt to get it to line up with the groove on the race bearing. Is it an issue if a washer has to be used? 

 

308-8 

https://www.partstree.com/models/21-08k802-308-8-toro-lawn-tractor-1986/pto-clutch-and-control-20/

312-8

https://www.partstree.com/models/21-12k804-312-8-toro-garden-tractor-1987/pto-clutch-and-control-20/

Edited July 25, 2023 by TC10284

[TC10284 111]

Just wondering if anyone had any input on the pto shaft size on the M8 vs M10/M12

Edited July 26, 2023 by TC10284

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,046]

The 8hp Kohler engines Wheel Horse used have 1" diameter pto shafts along with the first 10hp models 1964-1965

The B&S engines Wheel Horse used also have 1" diameter pto shafts.

 

The rest have 1-1/8" diameter pto shafts.

[TC10284 111]

On 7/26/2023 at 8:11 AM, gwest_ca said:

The 8hp Kohler engines Wheel Horse used have 1" diameter pto shafts along with the first 10hp models 1964-1965

The B&S engines Wheel Horse used also have 1" diameter pto shafts.

 

The rest have 1-1/8" diameter pto shafts.

 

Thank you sir. You're always helpful any time I post and I appreciate that. 

 

I assume I need a race bearing that is 1" on the ID instead of 1-1/8" on the ID. And that's where I get messed up because there doesn't appear to be a different sized race bearing that I know of. Unless I can get a shim of some type. 

Edited July 27, 2023 by TC10284

[Gasaholic 224]

11 minutes ago, TC10284 said:

 

Thank you sir. You're always helpful any time I post and I appreciate that. 

 

I assume I need a race bearing that is 1" on the ID instead of 1 and 1-1/8" on the ID. And that's where I get messed up because there doesn't appear to be a different sized race bearing that I know of.  

About 8 or 10 years ago, I had a Work Horse (Wheel horse tractor in grey paint with Briggs engines) that I needed a race bearing for, only one I could get at the time was the 1-1/8 ID bearing, then I found a 1" to 1-1/8" sleeve adapter that I bought aftermarket - I cannot for the life of me think where I found it, however, just that it was a sleeve adapter (They were more commonly used in heavy duty truck service to repair axle spindles that would otherwise have leaked at the wheel seals... I might have gotten a sleeve from CR (Chicago Rawhide) Seals  might be worth searching around sources like that?  

[TC10284 111]

6 minutes ago, Gasaholic said:

About 8 or 10 years ago, I had a Work Horse (Wheel horse tractor in grey paint with Briggs engines) that I needed a race bearing for, only one I could get at the time was the 1-1/8 ID bearing, then I found a 1" to 1-1/8" sleeve adapter that I bought aftermarket - I cannot for the life of me think where I found it, however, just that it was a sleeve adapter (They were more commonly used in heavy duty truck service to repair axle spindles that would otherwise have leaked at the wheel seals... I might have gotten a sleeve from CR (Chicago Rawhide) Seals  might be worth searching around sources like that?  

 

Thanks! I actually remembered I have a couple Workhorse GT's sitting waiting on me to fix them up. I may check to see if it has that part/sleeve that I could use. 

Otherwise, I will start googling. 

Edited July 27, 2023 by TC10284

[76c12091520h 3,620]

I have plenty of the 1 inch Id races in stock if you need.

[squonk 41,131]

This is what you need. PTO sleeve of of an 8 HP Kohler.

 

 

[BESTDOGEVER 218]

I can reccomend KandB I just got a pto bell from him. Good part at a fair price the whole transaction went smoothly. Ernie. 

[TC10284 111]

Sorry to bring up an old topic, but I tried to bolt on the pto clutch plate and realized the key in the shaft is, I think, too long than it should be.

 

Can someone confirm that the key is too long? If so, is the process as simple as removing the pulley and replacing the key with a shorter one? 

 

Pics:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/NhKgBULtfFEfuais8

[wallfish 17,000]

Yes, the key should be just as long as that pulley is thick.

The key can be cut to the proper length if it is too long.

Is it possible the key can be tapped in deeper? Hopefully flush with the edge

[TC10284 111]

1 hour ago, wallfish said:

Yes, the key should be just as long as that pulley is thick.

The key can be cut to the proper length if it is too long.

Is it possible the key can be tapped in deeper? Hopefully flush with the edge

 

I tried to tap it in some earlier with a round punch and heavy hammer but it did not budge. May try spraying pb blaster on it and try a little harder. Any risk of damage the engine internals? 

 

Assuming it is best to remove the pulley before trying to cut it to avoid damaging the shaft. 

Edited September 3, 2023 by TC10284

[Gasaholic 224]

9 hours ago, TC10284 said:

 

I tried to tap it in some earlier with a round punch and heavy hammer but it did not budge. May try spraying pb blaster on it and try a little harder. Any risk of damage the engine internals? 

 

Assuming it is best to remove the pulley before trying to cut it to avoid damaging the shaft. 

You'd need to know that the key is as long as the pulley keyway The risk of forcing it further would be wedging it due to the keyway groove in crank tapering back up to the crank O.D. - forcing the key up that groove risks cracking the drive pulley , so your best bet is removing the drive pulley and make sure key will be short enough that it won't start wedging the drive pulley before the end of key is flush to the pto plate surface.   Key is simple mild steel key stock (you can buy new key stock at any auto parts store and cut to length)  

[peter lena 8,631]

@TC10284  question , how easily does the related pelt driven attachment  move by belt / hand ?  know why there are so many PTO  clutches  replaced ?, the collective drag of bearing issues , is like dragging a weighted sled , just part of the problem , Pete

[TC10284 111]

What are the proper tools I'd need to pull this pulley? I do have a pulley puller, but have never used it. Hate to break it also. 

 

I have a 3 jaw puller. I just want to be careful to not break the pulley lips. 

 

Does anyone know what type of head the set screw is? 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/UMFsJBBmt2n5oaPB6

Edited September 3, 2023 by TC10284

[wallfish 17,000]

If that engine had a PTO setup on it before then the key could've slipped out. That's the reason I mentioned to try tapping it back in. I'm assuming you sprayed some kind of penetrating oil and loosened the set screw (s)? Remove the set screw (s) ALL THE WAY out and peak in the hole. Some had doubled up the set screws.

This is something you'll need to do for removing that pulley anyway.

Yes, if the key needs to be cut you should remove it to do that.