Running manual transmission backwards?

[OoPEZoO 525]

This might not make sense at first, but please bare with me.  I have a WH related project in the ether that I'm contemplating.  Does anyone know if there would be any potential damage to running, say a 8-speed manual WH transmission backwards?  As in, belt driving the transmission pulley in the opposite intended direction while in gear?  I've only looked at manuals and rebuild pics, but have never personally had one opened up.  From what I've seen, they are standard hard geared transmissions and I don't think there is anything preventing it from working smoothly in both rotational directions?  Any thoughts or concerns about trying it?

[Ed Kennell 38,181]

With all straight gears (no hypoids) in these trannys, I don't think they care which direction they are turning.    Rotation direction of hypoid gears affects bearing loads.

[Ed Kennell 38,181]

Oh, we do need pics of this creation.

[ebinmaine 67,535]

Agreed on both above posts by Ed. 

 

 

[stevasaurus 22,743]

The only thought I have is the transmission getting enough oil while running backwards.  If you look down the shift hole at how the oil is tossed around when on a work bench, you will see the oil raining on all the shafts and gears.  I just don't know if the transmission would oil itself as well when running backward.  Put one the bench and look down the shift hole and run the trans in both directions...if it looks like it is raining oil, you should be OK.  

[Handy Don 12,232]

Great outside the box ( ) thinking! I’m following with interest.

Edited July 6, 2023 by Handy Don

[OoPEZoO 525]

Yup, oiling was also a concern that had crossed my mind.  I assume again that it will be fine, but eyeballing it through the shifter hole is good idea.  As it happens, I just picked up a new shifter boot for my 314-8 at the big show.  Might just have to pop the belt off and check it out while I'm messing with it.  This project will not be put to "hard" work, it will just be for fun......but I like doing my homework before I finalize a plan

[ebinmaine 67,535]

I've seen homemade tractors online that used Wheelhorse and other brands manual transmissions set sideways so as to have another set of gears to divide for field work. 

Maybe @Oldskool might remember?

 

 

[wallfish 17,000]

Shouldn't be a problem.

The thick gear oil gets to the top by riding the gears up. Ever see those oil gear thingys on the auto parts counter. Turn the handle to watch the oil ride up the gears. The thicker oil gets more to the top. Don't think the oil cares which way it's going.

The other thing would be the brake if you're going to use that to stop. The band will be backwards to the rotation of the drum and it will try to push it open as opposed to pulling it closed. It would still work to some degree but not as good, that's for sure. You could reconfigure the band position to work better.

An 8 speed with a 6" pulley will allow the belt to clear the axle and you can simply run it in it's intended direction with the engine behind it. Could also consider running the brake drum shaft as an input. 

Have at it but please let us know what's up when you get that far!

[Handy Don 12,232]

12 minutes ago, wallfish said:

ould also consider running the brake drum shaft as an input. 

And remove the differential if it isn’t needed to eliminate extra friction and weight.

[OoPEZoO 525]

I don’t want to get into the weeds of the project design (especially the electric/battery portion) but here is the premise…..I want to drive an 8-speed transmission off of an electric motor.  The motor will be connected to the trans via pulley and belt.  I will have full forward, reverse, and speed control of the motor via a rocker pedal setup like a hydro. Changing gears on the transmission will change the gear ratio, but the forward/reverse pedal will control direction and speed

 

Originally, I was thinking about a hydro for this project, but then the electric motor has to spin full speed all the time like a gas motor and is a huge waste of energy. Then it crossed my mind about using a manual.  Then the motor will only spin while moving. As long as I can sort out the belt tension for driving both directions and the transmission can handle it…..it should be pretty sweet. Still lots of details to sort out, but I’m pretty confident I can make it work. Once work begins, there will be pictures, but still brainstorming currently 

[wallfish 17,000]

10 minutes ago, OoPEZoO said:

I don’t want to get into the weeds of the project design (especially the electric/battery portion) but here is the premise…..I want to drive an 8-speed transmission off of an electric motor.  The motor will be connected to the trans via pulley and belt.  I will have full forward, reverse, and speed control of the motor via a rocker pedal setup like a hydro. Changing gears on the transmission will change the gear ratio, but the forward/reverse pedal will control direction and speed

 

Originally, I was thinking about a hydro for this project, but then the electric motor has to spin full speed all the time like a gas motor and is a huge waste of energy. Then it crossed my mind about using a manual.  Then the motor will only spin while moving. As long as I can sort out the belt tension for driving both directions and the transmission can handle it…..it should be pretty sweet. Still lots of details to sort out, but I’m pretty confident I can make it work. Once work begins, there will be pictures, but still brainstorming currently 

Love it.

A while back I was thinking of something similar but going hybrid. Engine can charge the battery and/or drive the trans. One way bearings can allow the motor to spin without the engine running. Engine running spins both the motor and trans to generate battery charging and drive. Didn't get much past the thought process.

[oliver2-44 9,756]

1 hour ago, OoPEZoO said:

Originally, I was thinking about a hydro for this project, but then the electric motor has to spin full speed all the time like a gas motor and is a huge waste of energy. T

Even though the electric motor is spinning full speed all the time its power (amp) is variable with the amount of work being done.  Also and electric motor has a high inrush current draw each time it starts. Depending on the motor this can be 1.3x to over 3x normal full load amperage.  So you may not be saving a lot of energy if your electric motor is starting  & stopping frequently. The manual transmission witth hit the motor with a large power need when it starts from standstill coupled with the electric motor high starting current.  A Hydro would be sort of a "Soft Start" gradually building pressure (over a few seconds) Soft Start technology is very common on modern industrial motor controls today, especially heavily loaded motors (pumps, compressors, conveyors, etc).  Some batteries also don't like large repetitive power swings  Lots of variable.  Just some food for thought.

[SylvanLakeWH 25,577]

Basically you are describing an E-141, which is a C-1xx tractor with a manual transmission. (Except your rocker idea.)

 

Motor runs all the time just like a gas motor. Same belt drive concept etc. No need to reverse trans...

 

I have two of them. Let me know if you want info or pics. 36 volt system.

[OoPEZoO 525]

Thanks, I’m familiar with the available electric offerings……i wanted to try something different than just bolting on an electric motor and trying to find enough space for batteries. My main goal is getting rid of the clutch mechanism so as to not have the motor spinning all the time.  Also, if it works the way I hope, I can bury the motor low in the frame and free up the front for other things.  I have free access to all the large frame brushless motors, motor controllers, and large format LiIon batteries I need, just gotta figure out if I can make it work with the WH mechanicals in the way that I want. 
 

All that said, and I really do appreciate the input. I wanted to keep this thread just about the tranny spinning backwards and not go down the multiple rabbit holes it could regarding overall system design. 

[Oldskool 6,644]

On 7/6/2023 at 1:32 PM, ebinmaine said:

I've seen homemade tractors online that used Wheelhorse and other brands manual transmissions set sideways so as to have another set of gears to divide for field work. 

Maybe @Oldskool might remember?

 

 

I've seen them used as a transfer case connected to automotive live axles.

Is that what you are referring to.?

 

I skimmed down thru the comments. 

Wouldn't it be unnecessary to turn the transmission in reverse? The trans has reverse already. Am I missing something.?

 

Although wouldnt running the trans by reverse rotation give you 6 reverse gears including hi/lo. 2 gears forward?