Dump truck build

[JPWH 6,033]

14 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

Jay and/or John, how will you guys be keeping the belt system in play?

Extra guard/guides wrapped  around the pulleys?

 

I plan on using a jackshaft pulley to extend the belt to the extended distance drive pulley. Then I will make new covers for the belts on one side of the center frame and hydraulics on the other side.

[Handy Don 12,210]

54 minutes ago, wallfish said:

use the PTO attachment clutch and pulleys as the actual drive clutch

Far from hair-brained, IMHO. I like it!

[wallfish 16,994]

1 hour ago, ebinmaine said:

Interesting thought.  

Why the PTO instead of the normal foot clutch?

Because of relocating the engine vs transmission?

 

 

Still a single pedal to control the clutch and brake. Engine turned 90 deg so PTO is facing front. Tight belt to prevent slip to a shaft that is going to run under/through the frame rails to allow for a completely flat floor step through 2 seater. Then a 90 deg gearbox will exit off that shaft to connect it to the trans via sprockets and chain.

Lots of freedom to speed'r up or slow'r down by changing a pulley or sprocket. Think I'm going for speed and it can have plenty of torque in low range. Manual trans.

Those guys at Stevebo's M&G have been getting pretty fast lately and Kyle beat me on the Bike on the top end last year. He didn't necessarily dust me but he was moving pretty good.

Edited July 9, 2023 by wallfish

[Ed Kennell 38,128]

3 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

 

Why the PTO instead of the normal foot clutch?

Elimination of the idler/tensioning pulley  and using the PTO as a clutch gives a lot of freedom to the routing of the drive belt and the need for a belt guard.

The PTO brake offers an instant complete stopping of the drive belt for easy gear shifting.

[wallfish 16,994]

5 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

Interesting thought.  

Why the PTO instead of the normal foot clutch?

Because of relocating the engine vs transmission?

 

 

I know you like the quick drawings. A pic is worth a 1000 words.

Just something different too. Don't think it's been done yet using the PTO as a drive clutch but had this idea 10 ish years ago when I mentioned to a puller that had belt slippage problems. For his it was typical engine position and connect the PTO rod to a pedal. Jam the pedal down to engage and it would release when the pedal was or if you fell off. Now that setup could use a rubber sided belt and not slip at all on ANY of the pulleys. We'll find out if that clutch plate slips under driving load but it sure seems to hold good on a 60" deck or when the blowers are full of heavy snow, so it should work IMO.

 

[ebinmaine 67,415]

58 minutes ago, wallfish said:

We'll find out if that clutch plate slips under driving load but it sure seems to hold good on a 60" deck or when the blowers are full of heavy snow, so it should work IMO

Agreed. 

I don't see that being an issue.  

 

Excellent drawing too.  

[19richie66 17,500]

Thought about that with the D as it has the PTO but with the sideways eaton sitting in there, I have no room for it to pass through to the back. Why did I not keep that Xi transmission 😂

[Handy Don 12,210]

I tried to convince @Oldskool to do this for his camp truck, but come to find out other users would have had trouble with the clutch so he is going auto.

 

[Handy Don 12,210]

6 hours ago, wallfish said:

 

 

This is pretty slick. I suspect @JPWH will want to consider some sort of joints on the long shaft to deal with any misalignment and maybe one of those couplers with the interlocking sides and a rubber thingy in between (sorry for the technical language )

Edited July 10, 2023 by Handy Don

[8ntruck 6,998]

 A Lovejoy coupler is the technical word you are looking for.  You could do one at each end or just one coupling somewhere in between.  The rubber part of those couplings would cushion clutch engagement somewhat.

 

I wonder what the torque rating is on those PTO clutches?  Anybody ever run across that tidbit of information?

[wallfish 16,994]

7 hours ago, Handy Don said:

I tried to convince @Oldskool to do this for his camp truck, but come to find out other users would have had trouble with the clutch so he is going auto.

 

 

7 hours ago, Handy Don said:

This is pretty slick. I suspect @JPWH will want to consider some sort of joints on the long shaft to deal with any misalignment and maybe one of those couplers with the interlocking sides and a rubber thingy in between (sorry for the technical language )

This shaft/gearbox thing could also be done without using the WH PTO clutch and replace that with a centrifugal clutch. (Either out front on the engine or at the shaft of the gearbox.

 

It's going with a straight keyed shaft coupler. That will line up the shaft and there's no room for a lovejoy. The gearbox is tight up in the frame and off to one side so the rail prevents it. I'll use a bearing in the front and possibly another in the middle. Of coarse none of this is proven yet so we'll see how it goes. 

Edited July 10, 2023 by wallfish

[19richie66 17,500]

3 hours ago, wallfish said:

 

Excellent idea. If you used a gt14 frame you would get more width. A little more room between the rails to work with.

[Lee1977 6,656]

Are you going to use an "EB Tube" to mount the gear box and get the shaft out the right side? 

[wallfish 16,994]

1 hour ago, Lee1977 said:

Are you going to use an "EB Tube" to mount the gear box and get the shaft out the right side? 

What is an EB tube?

No, gearbox bolts directly to the frame and a cut out on the right of it for the shaft. It will be reinforced there but the gearbox bolts hold it too.

[Lee1977 6,656]

3 hours ago, wallfish said:

What is an EB tube?

No, gearbox bolts directly to the frame and a cut out on the right of it for the shaft. It will be reinforced there but the gearbox bolts hold it too.

You haven't followed EB's Colossus project.  It's been unfinished so long EB might not remember. 

Edited July 10, 2023 by Lee1977

[Oldskool 6,643]

22 hours ago, Handy Don said:

I tried to convince @Oldskool to do this for his camp truck, but come to find out other users would have had trouble with the clutch so he is going auto.

 

Thanks for bringing my attention to this build. I'll be checking in and lurking around lol

[JPWH 6,033]

Received the spindles and the steering arms. Now I can finish cutting the axle to length. Ordered some round stock for the spindle shafts to axle. I have 1 1/2 stock and need 1 5/8 for the spindles. I'll use the 1 1/2 for the hub spacers.

[wallfish 16,994]

41 minutes ago, JPWH said:

Received the spindles and the steering arms.

Those spindles look nice and heavy for your application. What are those from?

[8ntruck 6,998]

On 7/10/2023 at 4:44 AM, wallfish said:

 

This shaft/gearbox thing could also be done without using the WH PTO clutch and replace that with a centrifugal clutch. (Either out front on the engine or at the shaft of the gearbox.

 

It's going with a straight keyed shaft coupler. That will line up the shaft and there's no room for a lovejoy. The gearbox is tight up in the frame and off to one side so the rail prevents it. I'll use a bearing in the front and possibly another in the middle. Of coarse none of this is proven yet so we'll see how it goes. 

As you finalize the design and determine things like shaft diameter, expected operating rpm, and bearing spacing, we can do the math and make sure you will not be near a critical operating speed for the drive shaft.

 

The critical operating speed of a shaft is when the operating speed (rpm) is close to one of the shaft's natural frequencies.  All shafting will have some amount of imbalance.  A small amount of imbalance rotating near a natural frequency will create a 'mechanical feedback' that can have violent results - the mechanical equivelant to a sound system feedback.

 

Longer shafts, such as you are considering, are more prone to critical shaft speed issues than shorter shafts, so this is a good thing to check before the build - unless you enjoy noisy, violent surprises.

[wallfish 16,994]

13 minutes ago, 8ntruck said:

unless you enjoy noisy, violent surprises.

Plenty of experience from the wife with that so I must enjoy it. 33 years worth!  LoL

Never really considered frequency with mechanical feedback.

Haven't figured out how to get a bearing mounted in the middle yet but the total length is about 30 inches, 3/4 keyed shaft spinning at a max 3600 RPM. Does load have any effect on that equation?

I was also trying to figure out how to use a 1" shaft  instead and couple it to 3/4" female to accept the 3/4 shaft of the gearbox. A lovejoy will not fit in the space but maybe cut the frame to allow it and reinforce the frame. I like that heavier 1" shaft and have a few more different diameter pulleys with a 1" bore too.

[JPWH 6,033]

1 hour ago, wallfish said:

Those spindles look nice and heavy for your application. What are those from?

1 hour ago, wallfish said:

 

Gt 14

[8ntruck 6,998]

2 hours ago, wallfish said:

Plenty of experience from the wife with that so I must enjoy it. 33 years worth!  LoL

Never really considered frequency with mechanical feedback.

Haven't figured out how to get a bearing mounted in the middle yet but the total length is about 30 inches, 3/4 keyed shaft spinning at a max 3600 RPM. Does load have any effect on that equation?

I was also trying to figure out how to use a 1" shaft  instead and couple it to 3/4" female to accept the 3/4 shaft of the gearbox. A lovejoy will not fit in the space but maybe cut the frame to allow it and reinforce the frame. I like that heavier 1" shaft and have a few more different diameter pulleys with a 1" bore too.

Those numbers are good enough for the first pass.  I haven't messed with these calculations for a looog time, so I need to get my books back out and refresh my memory.

 

Bearing spacing is only one of the variables.  You can play with the cross sectional properties of the shaft as well.  Solid shaft, hollow shaft, round or not round, big diameter or small diameter are all possibilities.

 

Similar to guitar - bigger diameter, longer strings give lower natural frequencies, while smaller diameter, shorter strings give higher natural frequencies.  

[19richie66 17,500]

I sat out in my hot box staring at the D200 and trying to figure out how to get away from having two chain drives. If I stretch it to make a truck out of it, I can flip the differential like Panzer had it. Then maybe run a short driveshaft off the rear transmission splined shaft. Just have to play with sprocket sizes for gearing. Looks like we may be stretching a frame……

[Oldskool 6,643]

2 hours ago, 19richie66 said:

I sat out in my hot box staring at the D200 and trying to figure out how to get away from having two chain drives. If I stretch it to make a truck out of it, I can flip the differential like Panzer had it. Then maybe run a short driveshaft off the rear transmission splined shaft. Just have to play with sprocket sizes for gearing. Looks like we may be stretching a frame……

Just hypothetically, could you cut the back of the housing, then add another center section on the back to shaft drive to another rear?

[19richie66 17,500]

4 hours ago, Oldskool said:

Just hypothetically, could you cut the back of the housing, then add another center section on the back to shaft drive to another rear?

I’m not that talented 😂 I am just going to flip the rearend first and if I can put a lovejoy type coupler from it to the transmission, I’m hoping that will work. All still up in the air at the moment.