417 runs 20 minutes and sputters

[Dreamcatcher 102]

First I'd like to thank all who guided me on how to clean the cooling fins and torqueing the head bolts on my 417.  

I ran the engine to mow the grass for about 20 minutes. It started to sputter and I stopped mowing, reduced the throttle and it died.  I did some reading and it would seem that I likely have a fuel issue.  I took the a picture of teh fuel filter after running it a couple of minutes to put the tractor in the garage.  As you can see it is not full.  Yes it is prety nasty looking and I am awaiting a replacement in the mail.  The other picture is of the 90 degree fitting that is pushed into the gas tank.  According to my reading, this often gets clogged?  Does the fitting simply pull out of the rubber bung in the tank?  There is only about a 1/4 tank remaining so I thought it would be a good time to pull out the fitting, blow out the line from the fuel filter back to the bung, and filter out any crud that comes out of the tank.

What do you all think about this idea. You all always have good suggestions.

[ri702bill 8,316]

The grommet is pretty much a one shot wonder. They get hard & brittle with age. If both the shut off and grommet are more than a few years, best to replace both. A light lubricant - some use petroleum jelly or ATF, on both the ID and OD of the grommet helps. There is is microfine mesh strainer filter in the shutoff - that can get gummed up over time....

One way for assembly makes it easier than the other. I MAY be wrong, but I think you install the grommet (bushing) into the tank first, then the shut off into it

(OTHERS PLEASE VERIFY)

Ditto on the hose itself - ethanol fuel deteroirates it - more that 2 years old, replace it.

IF the tractor is only used in the summer, not all year long, if you drain the tank and the paper filter dries out in storage it MAY not let fuel pass thru next time used. I have had that happen with an Ariens SnoThro. Try to blow thru the old filter and you may see what I mean.

AND - fuel filters do not normally get "full" - just enough for fuel flow....

Edited June 25, 2023 by ri702bill

[Ed Kennell 38,158]

When I suspect a fuel supply issue, I check for fuel supply at the carb.     Disconnect the plug wire so it can not start, then disconnect the fuel line from the carb.   Hold the line in a container while a helper cranks the engine. 

 If you have a good spurting to the carb, the problem is in the carb.

If no spurting fuel,  start removing lines back to the tank till you find the problem.

If fuel is flowing to the fuel pump, the pump is bad.

If no fuel flowing to the pump, Keep removing lines till you find the blockage.

It may very well be a clogged screen inside the tank. 

 

   Just my approach to find the problem before replacing parts.

 

If it restarts and runs for 20 minutes, it could also be a clogged vent in the fuel tank cap.  Try running it with the cap loose.

Edited June 25, 2023 by Ed Kennell

[Dreamcatcher 102]

26 minutes ago, ri702bill said:

The grommet is pretty much a one shot wonder. They get hard & brittle with age. If both the shut off and grommet are more than a few years, best to replace both. A light lubricant - some use petroleum jelly or ATF, on both the ID and OD of the grommet helps. There is is microfine mesh strainer filter in the shutoff - that can get gummed up over time....

One way for assembly makes it easier than the other. I MAY be wrong, but I think you install the grommet (bushing) into the tank first, then the shut off into it

(OTHERS PLEASE VERIFY)

Ditto on the hose itself - ethanol fuel deteroirates it - more that 2 years old, replace it.

IF the tractor is only used in the summer, not all year long, if you drain the tank and the paper filter dries out in storage it MAY not let fuel pass thru next time used. I have had that happen with an Ariens SnoThro. Try to blow thru the old filter and you may see what I mean.

AND - fuel filters do not normally get "full" - just enough for fuel flow....

 

Do you or does anyone know the part number for the fitting and grommet?

[Ed Kennell 38,158]

Read this if you replace the grommet.

Tank grommet - Wheel Horse Tractors - RedSquare Wheel Horse Forum

 

[peter lena 8,620]

@Dreamcatcher  local h/w store has 4oz bottle of  SUPER LUBE , perfect for that valve / grommet issue . makes metal to rubber insert , much easier . also a great choke / throttle cable lube , pete

[D_Mac 8,610]

I just went through this. Turned out I had water in the gas. I pulled the shut off valve and rubber grommet out of tank. Cleaned the little screen on the valve. Emptied all the gas. Disconnected the fuel filter and disconnected the fuel line at the carb. Blew air into tank and fuel lines. Removed bowl off carb wiped dry. When I put it back together , new bowl gaskets on carb. New fuel filter. I placed the rubber grommet into the tank first and then pushed the shutoff valve through. Poured some dry gas into tank along with fresh ethanol free gasoline. No more issues I'm happy to say. I will add that the carb was brand new. That's why it was just wiped and air dried.

Edited June 25, 2023 by D_Mac

[Dreamcatcher 102]

5 hours ago, D_Mac said:

I just went through this. Turned out I had water in the gas. I pulled the shut off valve and rubber grommet out of tank. Cleaned the little screen on the valve. Emptied all the gas. Disconnected the fuel filter and disconnected the fuel line at the carb. Blew air into tank and fuel lines. Removed bowl off carb wiped dry. When I put it back together , new bowl gaskets on carb. New fuel filter. I placed the rubber grommet into the tank first and then pushed the shutoff valve through. Poured some dry gas into tank along with fresh ethanol free gasoline. No more issues I'm happy to say. I will add that the carb was brand new. That's why it was just wiped and air dried.

@D_Mac just to confirm you blew air through the fule system starting with the fuel line that connects to the carb?  was it relatively easy to pull the shutoff valve?

[D_Mac 8,610]

Shut off pulls right out. The petcock and grommet should come out as one. Since I removed the fuel filter, and disconnected the line at fuel pump and carb, I blew air back torwds the tank. Since it was disconnected there as well anything in the lines came out the back, not blowing anything torwds the carb. So you should be blowing out 3 sections of fuel line if you count the small piece from the pump to the carb. Then when putting it back together I used the same grommet.  I removed it from the petcock. Pushed it into the opening on the tank. Then I pushed the petcock through. Reconnect all your lines. That was my problem. Mine wouldn't start or run at all. With yours make sure your vent on gas cap is clear. Find out when it dies if it's losing spark or fuel. Good luck !!

[Dreamcatcher 102]

2 hours ago, D_Mac said:

Shut off pulls right out. The petcock and grommet should come out as one. Since I removed the fuel filter, and disconnected the line at fuel pump and carb, I blew air back torwds the tank. Since it was disconnected there as well anything in the lines came out the back, not blowing anything torwds the carb. So you should be blowing out 3 sections of fuel line if you count the small piece from the pump to the carb. Then when putting it back together I used the same grommet.  I removed it from the petcock. Pushed it into the opening on the tank. Then I pushed the petcock through. Reconnect all your lines. That was my problem. Mine wouldn't start or run at all. With yours make sure your vent on gas cap is clear. Find out when it dies if it's losing spark or fuel. Good luck !!

Thank you so much.  I'm going to replace all of the fuel lines, fuel filter, bushing and valve when I get back from vacation.  That will eliminate just about everything in the fuel system minus the pump.  

[Ed Kennell 38,158]

1 hour ago, Dreamcatcher said:

Thank you so much.  I'm going to replace all of the fuel lines, fuel filter, bushing and valve when I get back from vacation.  That will eliminate just about everything in the fuel system minus the pump.  

And the clogged vent in the fuel cap and the dirty carburator.

[Dreamcatcher 102]

7 hours ago, Ed Kennell said:

And the clogged vent in the fuel cap and the dirty carburator.

The fuel cap is brand new.  Would the carb be suspect since it ran for 2 hours no problem 1.5 months ago? Based on my picture of the fuel filter, the ethanol gunk must be plentiful in the fuel system.

[Ed Kennell 38,158]

1 hour ago, Dreamcatcher said:

The fuel cap is brand new.  Would the carb be suspect since it ran for 2 hours no problem 1.5 months ago? Based on my picture of the fuel filter, the ethanol gunk must be plentiful in the fuel system.

Make sure the new cap is vented.      A carb can fail at any time.          

Just to be clear,     regular maintenance should be done to all fuel systems especially if E10 fuel is used.     Filters should be changed and in tank screens on the petcocks should be cleaned. or replaced. If the fuel lines show sign of softness or a build up of scum on the inside, they should be replaced.

Having replaced all these , do not be surprised if there is no improvement.

A dirty carb or a weak fuel pump may be the problem          

This is why I prefer to locate the problem by disconnecting the fuel line at the carb and check for a good spurting fuel supply  before replacing parts.

[Dreamcatcher 102]

29 minutes ago, Ed Kennell said:

Make sure the new cap is vented.      A carb can fail at any time.          

Just to be clear,     regular maintenance should be done to all fuel systems especially if E10 fuel is used.     Filters should be changed and in tank screens on the petcocks should be cleaned. or replaced. If the fuel lines show sign of softness or a build up of scum on the inside, they should be replaced.

Having replaced all these , do not be surprised if there is no improvement.

A dirty carb or a weak fuel pump may be the problem          

This is why I prefer to locate the problem by disconnecting the fuel line at the carb and check for a good spurting fuel supply  before replacing parts.

The cap is a WH cap with level indicator from I think wheelhorsepartsandmore.  Is there a way to verify it is venting?  I acquired this tractor last fall and have no idea how long it sat prior to this spring.  I'm assuming these fuel lines have had ethanol fuel in them for years.  I only use non ethanol fuel in all my small engines.  It's going to be a process getting it back to reliable again.

[Ed Kennell 38,158]

20 minutes ago, Dreamcatcher said:

Is there a way to verify it is venting?

The cap is probably OK. The easy way to test it is to leave it loose and see if that solves the fuel starvation problem.

[Dreamcatcher 102]

I've done quite a number of things to the tractor to fix the fuel system.  The engine starts right up now.  To review i've replaced all of the fuel lines, confirmed the fuel pump is pumping fiel, and cleaned the carb.  The throttle is very touchy.  Putting the throttle at 33% seems tomake it run at full throttle and when I put it back to it's lowest setting, doesn't seem to lower the rpms. It seems like no matter which hole I use for the throttle spring it doesn't quite have enought force to pursh the lever firmly enough to get it to the lowest throttle setting.  I rechecked the choke cable adjustment and it seems good.  Other than that I don't really think I adjusted anything.  Could the throttle spring be worn out?

When I troed to mow today, it was revving to high and then would suddenly rev lower and then surge. 

One other tidbit, during the cleaning of the carb, I also loosened the carriage bolt in the linkage at the top of the picture.  It didn't seem to do much so I put it back on.

Any suggestions on how to fix this would be greatly appreciated.

[pfrederi 17,734]

That is the governor control arm.  It is important ...you need to adjust it properly.

 

Download this manual the read page 68 to see how to adjust the arm.

 

 

 

[lynnmor 7,305]

It looks like that cable laying on top may be interfering with parts below, check it out.

 

[Dreamcatcher 102]

Although the choke cable looks close to the governor arm it was not a culprit in the misconfiguration.  I tried it under the arm and it was not going to work.

 

Good news.  As usual you all have the right answer right away.  I'm grateful to have your support.  I adjusted the governor and arm per the manual and voila!, the low throttle idle and high throttle position both work great.  Mowed the rest of the yard for another hour and no hiccups or issues. Thanks again to all.