Loose intake seat on my P220

[S416-8 341]

Well 75% through the engine cleaning, new gaskets etc.. got the one side done w/o issues so moved to the other and found that I can pull the valve seat out with a finger. So looks like I will need to get the shop to bore it and stuff a new seat in there...  has anyone done this and about how much should I expect it to cost??

 

Been reading on this and with it missing that gasket around the oil filter it sounds like that may be the cause.. glad that I ordered a new one..

Thanks

Edited June 18, 2023 by S416-8
added txt

[S416-8 341]

Is there anything else that I should do with this as long as I am in there

[Ed Kennell 39,460]

I'm sure you have cleaned the cooling fins, but check for any small oil leak under the oil filter base where it bolts to the block.    The gasket under this base is very narrow and subject to leaks.      Any small oil leak is blown across the cooling fins and attracts the grass clippings and dirt that is pulled in at the flywheel.   I vent the belt guards on mine.   Some say it doesn't help, but it can not hurt.   Run it at WOT.    I carry a long handled brush to clean the air intake screen while mowing.

[S416-8 341]

GM and thanks.. cleaned everything that I can see and touch on the engine. Will check that gasket out.

[Jon Paulsen 291]

Have you got the piston out of the hole and crankshaft out?

 

Opinion of a hack:

 

IDK what they would charge these days. I'd call around and ask. Also ask what their hourly rate is. If you have a small engine shop around they might have an arrangement with a shop that is good at this. I think a clean block without any parts in it except maybe the valve guides would cost less. 

 

Get a mic on the cylinder bore top, center and bottom of ring travel and compare to specs. Also check above ring travel (there can be a ridge, and if it's big, that needs taken out to get the piston in/out safely). You might be able to feel for the ridge with the psiton down. If you can feel it, it's big. This could be you or the shop. You only need feeler gauges to check ring end gap, very good instructions here:

 

I'd run it if the hole is just a little too big, but that's just me. The hack. 

 

Ball hone just enough to get some cross-hatch at about 45 degrees. 

 

If the piston is still in the hole and you are going to remove it, and you have never done this, you might seek instruction on the piston rings. I like fnaguitarplayer9 on youtube. He does what's reasonable, not race ready rebuilds  Lisle on amazon has good but inexpensive ring pliers. You can get a ring compressor, also lisle is a good bang for the buck. Large zip ties work too, slightly more tricky.  

 

You or shop needs to lap the valve to the new seat. Tool (suction cup on a stick) and compound is about $20 IIRC. The thing is, you need to get the compound out after lapping. Otherwise it turns into magic fast break-in/wear-out compound. Might as well get the intake valve. 

 

I use Dawn dish soap for cleaning. Safe on seals and stuff. Cheap engine brushes from HF. If you get the kind that mount in a 1/4" handle, impact driver or drill motor, those unwind and spit bristles all over if run in reverse. Otherwise decent and cheap. 

 

All I can think of for now. If this is too much or discouraging, personally I would look for a donor engine that has good compression. $$$.

 

Blessings to you and yours!

[S416-8 341]

Thanks. Actually off to the old wheel horse dealer for advice and contacts. May even be selling my Bolens DGT1700 if needed. 

[lynnmor 7,445]

If the valve seat is just loose with almost no play, a .010" oversize seat can still be found even though that are no longer produced.  You want about .0055" interference fit and it might be possible to use the .010" without boring if you are extremely lucky.  Since you found the problem before failure, you lucked out so far.  There is no need to pop the pistons to do the valve seats, pulling both heads helps, the other side should be checked anyway.

[S416-8 341]

A ray of hope thanks..

Funny I called 2 people that work on Onan's and both came back with no fix - new block for a reply. I had to send them the Onan parts link to show the new oversize seats.. Bought a digital caliper and came up with 1.43+/- with the caliper reaching all the way back to the rim. I think that means that I should be good at the A1.500 that is available on the Onan site?? 

 

Never done anything like this so all new ground for me.

Edited July 13, 2023 by S416-8
sp fix

[wallfish 17,141]

8 hours ago, S416-8 said:

Never done anything like this so all new ground for me.

Success or not there's certainly value in learning something new and attaining new skills.

[S416-8 341]

true there.. hey I figured I taught myself with nothing more that a book from advanced auto to turn my Mazda 626 from an auto to a standard and never got even an engine light when done I can work on a garden tractor.. 

 

Sad part, have not heard back from Onan about the correct oversize seat after sending them my specs.

Ugh Part, finding a machine shop that will do the job and correctly. 

Great part, looks like it will all be repairable w/o a new engine.

[RED-Z06 2,353]

My Deere 420 ate a seat before i bought it, 20/120 were my compression numbers.  I tore it down and shopped it to every machine shop for 40 miles, no one would touch it.  Fact is, its not worth it for them.  There's no ready made mounting jig to put it in the mill, they have to find the seat, valve, counter bore the block, machine the new seat for the right height, press it, cut the seat, lap the new valve in.

 

Figure...3hrs, at $120/hr, that they could be fly cutting heads, blocks, doing liners...and turn out work they know is right.

 

I found a replacement engine 900 miles away and had it shipped in.

[S416-8 341]

Hope that doesn't happen but there is an older guy about 1hr from me that sells fully rebuilt P220g's for about $800-$1000 so that is my other option. Stopped at the old WH dealer and he said that he knows of a shop that can do the valve but still thinking of the options.. fix mine or get a rebuilt???  

[S416-8 341]

Happy days. Found a engine shop on Syre PA that can do the valve seats. Quoted me 300 for a full valve job , cleaning and a 2 week down time. 🐶

[Tuneup 1,433]

LUCKY! Keep that number handy.

[S416-8 341]

Will do as well as post it here once I get the ok 

[S416-8 341]

Just left the shop a miscommunication he though I had only the heads I brought the engine so just under 200 to fix the one seat. Still happy cause better than a new engine at 1600 

[S416-8 341]

quick update is that the shop still has the engine thanks to fun with the USPS sending the new valve seat all over the country. But I have my new rims, tubes and AGs on the way, snow cab fitted and part by part repainting the frame looking at LED flood lights and marker lights etc...  Will soon be grabbing the blower and going through that as well.... 

[S416-8 341]

well on a plus I have my engine back on a sad not my Harbor Freight torque wrench failed to click when I hit to correct poundage and it broke a bold in the head. Because I's bad at drilling bolts out I taking it to the shop to have them drill it out.. Tested the 1/4" wrench against my 1/2" one and 20lbs on the 1/2 = 45 on the 1/4.. dropped the thing off the bench and it seemed to fix it but off to by a better one after work tonight.. 

[lynnmor 7,445]

7 hours ago, S416-8 said:

well on a plus I have my engine back on a sad not my Harbor Freight torque wrench failed to click when I hit to correct poundage and it broke a bold in the head. Because I's bad at drilling bolts out I taking it to the shop to have them drill it out.. Tested the 1/4" wrench against my 1/2" one and 20lbs on the 1/2 = 45 on the 1/4.. dropped the thing off the bench and it seemed to fix it but off to by a better one after work tonight.. 

The Harbor Freight 1/4" drive torque wrench has inch pound markings, I would like to know which bolt you twisted off so we can see the specification for that bolt.

[RED-Z06 2,353]

Impressive it snapped off..my Matco failed to click and it casually pulled the threads out of 2 head bolt holes

[S416-8 341]

This is the bugger.. grrrand if my the conversion is correct 16 ft lbs = 192 inch lbs

Edited July 14, 2023 by S416-8

[mrc 854]

you might want to consider mounting the oil filter remotely.  duke (aka horsefixer) did this.  might find the thread somewhere on here.  you have to pull the engine to do this but, you are already there.    

 

either way sounds like you are on a good path.

good luck

mike

[lynnmor 7,445]

You might want to get a beam style torque wrench and leave the problems of the click style behind.  Often convenience can be very inconvenient.

[S416-8 341]

GM and thanks for the replies.

Interesting idea on the remote oil filter. Probably help with the cooling a bunch.. will look for that thread.

beam style torque wrench - already looking at them now.. so your comment added more to that idea thanks.

 

While it is still down I took the time to change the headlights over to LED's, add new amber LED fog lights to the top of the cab and a birght 1" red rear LED for the winter.. have a small switch panel on order which I will use to control the lights.. also started to get the deck ready for paint and repair.. all while the 416 overlooks the project. 

Edited July 14, 2023 by S416-8

[S416-8 341]

Got the engine together but need to chase down and electrical issue. Started up fine but I must have crossed a wire someplace. Dash lights stay on when the machine is off and when I started to increase the throttle it blew the 15amp fuse. So back to it tomorrow..

 

Any thoughts on things to check will be welcomed.