417 Cleaning cooling fins

[Dreamcatcher 102]

My WH was running hot while pushing/scraping some dirt last weekend.  I want to inspect and clean the cooling fins.  Any suggensitons would be appreciated.  I suppose the shroud is all one piece and is fastend by what appears to be more than a dozen bolts?

 

 

 

[peter lena 8,769]

@Dreamcatcher  would make a regular point of checking that intake zone , bet those side heads have some debris build up , also lubricate every related bolt / screw  so its easier , once you do that you can also " tweek " and problem areas . pete

[Dreamcatcher 102]

3 minutes ago, peter lena said:

@Dreamcatcher  would make a regular point of checking that intake zone , bet those side heads have some debris build up , also lubricate every related bolt / screw  so its easier , once you do that you can also " tweek " and problem areas . pete

I took a quick closer look and it looks like I can just remove the screen in the first picture.  Looks like just four or five bolts.  Is your suggestion to remove the is screen and clean from there?  

[oliver2-44 9,875]

I would remove the screen and the front head tin since its easy to get to.

With the screen off use a light and see how dirty that back head is. If it fairly dirty, especially if its oily dirty I would remove that rear tin.

Is this engine due a valve adjustment or head carbon cleaning? Now would be the time to do that as well.

As a minimum I would check the torque on the head bolts where you have even just the front tin off.

Use some anti seize on he bolts and nuts when you put it back together. 

You engine will thank you!

 

This is just me, I tend to bite the bullet and do a full maintenance when i get into it.

[Dreamcatcher 102]

5 hours ago, oliver2-44 said:

I would remove the screen and the front head tin since its easy to get to.

With the screen off use a light and see how dirty that back head is. If it fairly dirty, especially if its oily dirty I would remove that rear tin.

Is this engine due a valve adjustment or head carbon cleaning? Now would be the time to do that as well.

As a minimum I would check the torque on the head bolts where you have even just the front tin off.

Use some anti seize on he bolts and nuts when you put it back together. 

You engine will thank you!

 

This is just me, I tend to bite the bullet and do a full maintenance when i get into it.

 

Can the fins be removed with only the screen off? Or does the entire 'shroud' be removed?  I've only owned the 417 for a few months and this is the first time I'm really digging into it so I don't know if it needs a valve clearance adjustment or carbon cleaning.  Loaded question I know, how do i do that?  What is the correct torque on teh head bolts?  I love using the anti seize!!!

 

UPDATE:  Looks like I may have found the cooling problem.  The lower right fins are completely plugged and the fins up gront are also caked up. It would seem i'm only a couple of bolts away from removing both covers?  I guess i'll see how to remove the fins once the covers are removed.

 

Next UPDATE: Do I just remove these 6 bolts to remove the fins?  I very much appreciate your help.  I've done a lot of automotive maintenance however this is my first tractor.

 

 Next UPDATE: I'm really close removing the rear cover.  Seems like I must remove the starter solenoid to get enough clearance to pull it out.

Next UPDATE: Rear cover removed. Ya find all kinds of stuff deposited in the frame over the years heehee.  Once I hear back about removing the fins I'll continue on with the project.

 

Edited June 9, 2023 by Dreamcatcher

[peter lena 8,769]

@Dreamcatcher  agree with  @oliver2-44  on the opportunity , to get a good look at  your set up. if its too much , sure otherrs with a similar set up will chime in . pete

[oliver2-44 9,875]

You clean the fins in place. You don’t remove them.  Use some compressed air and a small brush. If you have a suction blow air gun you can spray them with solvent. Or you can buy a couple of cans of brake clean to wash them out 

 

I’m on my phone and hard for me to copy a link to a manual. If someone else doesn’t send you a Kohler engine manual link I will do it tonight. 
 

As dirty as that is I would guess no one’s been in there in quite a while. That would make me suspect the engine is due for a head carbon cleaning, and valve adjustment. Do you know how many hours are on the tractor?

Edited June 10, 2023 by oliver2-44

[Dreamcatcher 102]

@oliver2-44thank you for your input.  I'll commence cleaning the fins.  I could use some help with the two procedures you have mentioned; the carbon cleaning and valve adjustment.  I've never done that.

[peter lena 8,769]

@Dreamcatcher https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=wheel+horse+belt+guard+vent+holes&qpvt=wheel+horse+belt+guard+vent+holes&form=IGRE&first=1  you might also consider , adding a few holes in your belt guard ,would enhaance the rear cylinder venting / cooling , pete

[Dreamcatcher 102]

3 hours ago, oliver2-44 said:

You clean the fins in place. You don’t remove them.  Use some compressed air and a small brush. If you have a suction blow run gun you can spray them with solvent. Or you can buy a couple of cans of brake clean to wash them out 

 

I’m on my phone and hard for me to copy a link to a manual. If someone else doesn’t send you a Kohler engine manual link I will do it tonight. 
 

As dirty as that is I would guess no one’s been in there in quite a while. That would make me suspect the engine is due for a head carbon cleaning, and valve adjustment. Do you know how many hours are on the tractor?

 The hour meter is not working but shows 1417 hours.  Honestly, it barely smokes at start up and starts very easily.  I know this maintenance is much needed and i'm happy to do it.  I'm hoping this tractor outlives ME!

[oliver2-44 9,875]

With those hours and as dirty as those fins are I truly suspect it’s due a good maintenance. The good thing is it all doesn’t have to be done tomorrow. So you have some time to plan things. 
Is this your :

mowing tractor

snow tractor

all around tractor

 

I’m trying to get an idea of what to recommend you do now vs when it’s not needed to work as much.

 

Edited June 10, 2023 by oliver2-44

[Dreamcatcher 102]

@oliver2-44I have a 310-8 that can easily get me through the summer and would like to get this tractor squared up.  I'm hoping I can do everything myself.

[Bill D 1,944]

5 hours ago, peter lena said:

@Dreamcatcher https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=wheel+horse+belt+guard+vent+holes&qpvt=wheel+horse+belt+guard+vent+holes&form=IGRE&first=1  you might also consider , adding a few holes in your belt guard ,would enhaance the rear cylinder venting / cooling , pete

Pete,  You don't need to do that on a KT powered tractor.  The engine tins are designed differently and as a result the belt guard doesn't present the same cooling issues as the Onan powered tractors.

[Bill D 1,944]

Also, while you have the engine tins off mark the "S" mark on the flywheel with a white paint pen for timing the engine later on if you have to change the points.  Also mark the pointer on the engine block.

[oliver2-44 9,875]

Here's the manual for the Kohler KT17 engine. 

i have a small amount of experience with the Kohler twins, and a good amount with the single cylinders.  

a lot of the maintenance requirements are the same, just a bit more complicated on the twins. 

I was hoping @pfrederi or some others with more Kohler twin experience would jump in here. 

 

So if this were mine and no history on the engine, except it runs good, but recently ran hot, here my thoughts. 

1. Definitely clean all the engine fins you can get to removing the front and both side covers.

2 Gently try to clean behind the flywheel where the electrical charging stator and magnets are. If you have an air blow gun that you can attach a small tube to blow back there use it.  I've seen quite a few stators and magnets totally caked with crud just like your fins looked.  especially if the front seal was leaking a little (oil attracts and hold dust and dirt)    

3. If you have a cylinder compression gage now would be a good time to record a "cold" compression baseline reading on each cylinder.

4. While it would be good to check the valve clearance, this requires pulling the carb, and intake manifold ( @pfrederi correct me on this if Im mis speaking here)   Then if adjustment is needed it requires grinding the valve stems. 

        so I would hold off on the valve checking for a little while and learn more about the engines needs. Such as are their any small seal or gasket leaks that need to be corrected while you have the manifolds and all the tins off.

5. Decarbon - I would wait to pull the heads until i was ready to do the valves.  Although some things can be pulling the heads and recording a set of cylinder bore precision measurements  if you have the experience and tools to do it.  You mention a small amount of smoke on startup.  This could be coming from worn valve stem seals on the intake valves. When you do the valve maintenance would be the time to replace them.    

7 Retorque heads. since you have the covers off I would check the torque on the cylinder head bolts.  (See page 60 of manual)  If you don't own a torque wrench. most auto parts stores will loan you one.  A word of caution, head bolts especially near the exhaust can be heat-rusted and the bolt break if you were trying to remove them.  Since your just trying to check tightness, don't force anything. 

Now put it back together and run it to see if it runs cooler. 

 

Then study the manual.  if you above compression test looks good (post readings for he guys to comment on.) make plans to do a valve maintenance, decarbon, etc. 

If your compression is marginal or more than 15% difference between cylinders you might want to do a "Cylinder Leak Down Test"  auto part stores may load you the tool to do this.

This might tell you if rings are leaking or valves are leaking.  If its valves you could lap them when doing the valve clearance checks. 

 

1 hour ago, Bill D said:

Also, while you have the engine tins off mark the "S" mark on the flywheel with a white paint pen for timing the engine later on if you have to change the points.  Also mark the pointer on the engine block.

   Excellent comment, I do this to all my engines.  You may need to clean the rust off the flywheel with a hand wire brush to find the "S"

 

Can you tell us if this is a KT 17 Series I or Series II engine? if you don't know the manual give the serial number when they went to series II.  

 

Also, what made you realize it was running hot?

 

 

Edited June 10, 2023 by oliver2-44

[Dreamcatcher 102]

I did not have a chance to work on the cleanup today but will start bright and early in the morning.  Unfortunately, before reading teh previous post I discovered A :PT pf crud around the flywheel and dug out as much as I could reach.  I then sprayed the area with engine degeaser and have let it 'soak in'.  I acquired a parts cleaning brush and a stiff paint brush to  scrub around/behind the flywheel and remove any pesky deposits on the cooling fins. The narrow top piece of the shroud that sits horizontially across the top of the motor has the Kohler model number on it and I will get that info when I clean it up.

 

Regarding the head bolts, I count six per head but I think somoene indicated there are 9?

Thanks again for all the help folks!!

[Dreamcatcher 102]

<forrestgumpvoice> I scrubbed and scrubbed and scrubbed and then scrubbed some more. </forrestgumpvoice>

It isn't perfect but wow it is worlds cleaner than it was.  Here are the numbers I found on one of the tins.

KT17QS

Spec No. 24350

I will get a compression tester soon.  Before reinstaling the fins I want to torque the head bolts.  I found the head bolt tightening sequence. I still need to clean up the fan and mark the 'S' with whilte paint.  Where is this 'S'?

Edited June 12, 2023 by Dreamcatcher

[oliver2-44 9,875]

Your spec and serial number indicate you have a Series II engine which has the improved pressurized lubrication.  

 

I'm not familiar with that flywheel,.  But, In the manual page 35, figure 6-7 shows the site hole in the cover for where you would see the "S"

I'm going to guess that if you clean up the "flat spot behind the fins in this picture you will find the "S"

@pfrederi  @Bill DCan you help tell him where to find the timing 'S"

 

 

[Bill D 1,944]

2 minutes ago, oliver2-44 said:

Your spec and serial number indicate you have a Series II engine which has the improved pressurized lubrication.  

 

I'm not familiar with that flywheel,.  But, In the manual page 35, figure 6-7 shows the site hole in the cover for where you would see the "S"

I'm going to guess that if you clean up the "flat spot behind the fins in this picture you will find the "S"

@pfrederi  @Bill DCan you help tell him where to find the timing 'S"

 

 

It's been awhile.  I can't remember if it's near the flywheel fins or on the other side of the ring gear.  The service manual may help.

[Dreamcatcher 102]

Hello Everyone,

Well I finally got humpty dumpty back together again today.  Torquing the head bolts turned out to be very necessary.  I started at 140 inch lbs and all the bolts with exception of 1 or 2 on each head moved.  I then proceeded to 180 and then 217 inch lbs and all of the head bolts moved.  The spark plugs had been gapped priort to the cleanup.  For some reason, it took a lot of cranking to get it to start.  I suspected no spark and was putting a volt meter on the ignition coil when it finally fired.  I let it idle for a few minutes, seemed smoother and a bit more quiet.  I put it at 3/4 throttle and sprayed several shotts of amsoil power foam in the carb and then loaded it up until the engine died.  Waited ten minutes, started it up and moved it to full throttle.  A LOT of smoke and strong burning smell came out the exhaust and I let it run for a handful of minutes until the burning smell went away.  I also put a new air filter on it.  Still waiting on a new fuel filter to arrive.  There were a lot of things that got improved here and i'm hopeful fixing all these little things result in a reliable even longer running engine.  Thanks to all who provided feedback and perhaps someone else will benefit from this in the future.

 

Oh and Happy Father's Day everyone!

Edited June 18, 2023 by Dreamcatcher

[Jon Paulsen 290]

Check the label on any solvents. All I had on hand were not for use on Aluminum. It probably would have been fine if rinsed off fairly quickly, but I went for Dawn dish soap, warm water and scrubbing. That was on a B&S and a Lawnboy 2 stroke. Kohlers might have immunity to my shenanigans.  You just don't want parts to shrink or get brittle from long soaks. De-carb is good, clean fun. I had a good cup of carbon in the wash tub after getting the lawnboy clean 

 

I wish you a clean and happy engine! 

[Dreamcatcher 102]

1 hour ago, Jon Paulsen said:

Check the label on any solvents. All I had on hand were not for use on Aluminum. It probably would have been fine if rinsed off fairly quickly, but I went for Dawn dish soap, warm water and scrubbing. That was on a B&S and a Lawnboy 2 stroke. Kohlers might have immunity to my shenanigans.  You just don't want parts to shrink or get brittle from long soaks. De-carb is good, clean fun. I had a good cup of carbon in the wash tub after getting the lawnboy clean 

 

I wish you a clean and happy engine! 

Dawn dish soap.....yes much more earth friendly for sure.  I will certainly use that in my next coming cleanup effort on my 310/  Great call.