Another Hydro foot pedal conversion - 518H

[Damien Walker 246]

Having recently acquired a pedal equipped 520LXI, the pressure has been on me to construct something similar for my 518H. Whilst I am used to the hand lever (steering column type in this case) and footbrake method of control, I find the control lever awkward to use, especially if you don't have power steering (though my 518H DOES have power steering!).

 

 My thanks go to Matt, Bill D and kpinnc for publishing their systems and particularly to kpinnc (Kevin) for his recent direct help.

 

So, I have plagiarised bits from each really, to end up with my solution:

 

I have to admit to a certain amount of laziness in that I didn't want to dismantle my tractor to the degree required by Matt's installation and so I decided to attempt a direct connection from the pedal to the control yoke with a simple pushrod. (Matt's system uses a simple pushrod, except that he adds a lever to the control yoke to reverse the action of the underslung crank on his pedal). My pedal is a standard manual tractor brake pedal (ie fitted on the right had side), to which I brazed an over slung crank so that pushing the pedal forwards pulls the pushrod forwards and tilts the control yoke forwards....no extra lever is required.

 

Here's the pushrod: 

The left hand Heim joint bolts onto the control yoke alongside the column control pushrod and the right hand end bolts onto the pedal crank. The dog leg was required to make the push rod horizontal at the pedal end to make the self centring fork easier to make - this just bolts straight to the chassis rail

I should point out at this stage that I may have more room over the chassis rails in my tractor because I no longer have a fan gear, due to having power steering. I may therefore have space that a standard tractor does not..... but it is fairly easy to check to see if a pushrod will fit. Additionally, I have hydraulic pipes for the steering where Matt's conversion mounts his self centring system, so whilst his solution is simple and rather elegant, it wouldn't work for me! My system uses a pair of compression springs on the pushrod, bearing on a chassis mounted 'fork'. Two identical springs centre the pushrod and the zero drive position for the transmission can be set to match this by adjusting the Heim joints (Rose joints in the UK!).

 

The final issue was how to convert the brake pedal to provide the reverse function. I tried a number of different arrangements and didn't like them for various reasons (I don't actually like the 520LXI system to be truthful as it is not a good idea to use the pedal as a rocker because it is very easy to over control which I feel rather defeats the object of a foot pedal! (The scratch on my near immaculate 520LXI bears witness to the folly of 'pedal rocking' in the confined space of my shed earlier this week). Matt adds a reverse pedal to the standard brake pedal, Bill's is a rocker and Kevin's uses a commercially available pedal...all of which are nice solutions but I wanted to use the standard right hand brake pedal and so was leaning towards Matt's system when I came up with the idea of a toe lift system, rather like the gear change on a motor cycle. It is therefore rather unconventional, but having now driven it, I feel it is good enough to try using on the machine properly. Only further experience with it will tell.

 

Sadly I have run out of photo space so will add a picture of the pedal when I have completed this initial post.

[Damien Walker 246]

Pedal!

[kpinnc 12,013]

Very nice! 

 

 

[dalez 137]

I may attempt this one. Less parts works for me.

[Damien Walker 246]

3 hours ago, dalez said:

I may attempt this one. Less parts works for me.

I'll add some dimensions to my 3D CAD drawings and post them here if that would help?

[Bill D 1,920]

1 hour ago, Damien Walker said:

I'll add some dimensions to my 3D CAD drawings and post them here if that would help?

Glad some part of my design was helpful.  I look forward to seeing your drawings.

[Damien Walker 246]

Toe pedal mounting bracket is as follows:

with the rod welded into the top hole. Material Thickness is 6mm. Rod is 11mm diameter (I just had some 11mm stock!) and 100mm long.

 

Pedal Crank:

Bear in mind that the Brake pedal is cast iron and not an exact size, so you may need to adjust the 32mm hole. Mine (fortuitously) was a nice press fit which enabled brazing without clamps. I TIG brazed it....with mixed results. It's the first thing I have attempted to TIG braze and the result wouldn't win any prizes but I am confident it is strong enough. The pedal is a mighty lump of cast iron so would take a lot of heat to braze using a normal blowlamp...still doable though. I decided not to attempt to weld due the different expansion and contraction coefficients and the likelihood that something would crack. It could just as easily be pinned or grub screwed I guess. Material thickness is 8mm but 6mm would be good enough as it is not under any significant load.

 

Pushrod:

I didn't draw the pushrod due to the difficulty of identifying suitable compression springs. I bought a selection box off fleabay and there were a couple of apparently suitable sizes. I started with a 10mm pushrod but the 10mm id springs were not strong enough so I cut off the lower part of the rod and substituted 8mm diameter for the horizontal spring section and used springs made with thicker wire. The two black washers are DELRIN/ACETAL so that they slip easily along the pushrod as the pedal moves. Cutting the rod down made it easy then to include a back stop washer for the rear spring to butt against...similar to the one at the front behind the HEIM joint. I can draw up my pushrod if anyone wants to see it but it is very much dictated by the springs you can get. I used 1/4-28 UNF Heim joints (both right and left hand threads, because initially I was intending to use a straight pushrod (right and left hand threads on opposite ends makes it more easily length adjustable) and I only used the imperial thread size because that is what is used by Wheelhorse for the link to the hydro bell crank. I could have just as easily used 6mm (and not bothered buying a left hand 1/4-28 tap!)

 

Pushrod Fork:

I haven't dimensioned this....but it is basically a 50mm length of 50x50x6 angle with a 10mm slot offset from the centreline. The mounting hole is 8mm and as with the pushrod, it is all very dependent upon the compression springs you use. 

 

Finally, I used a lathe to drill the pushrod and to turn the 32mm hole in the pedal crank, but the rest of it was mostly metal carvery by angle grinder and belt sander... all powder coated (to a roughly Toro/Wheelhorse red)

 

Hope this helps, but if anyone needs more information, I can provide.

[Damien Walker 246]

8 hours ago, Bill D said:

Glad some part of my design was helpful.  I look forward to seeing your drawings.

Hi Bill, it was more seeing the different variations of what is possible than your actual design....you probably saved me a few iterations. I'm not saying mine is any better - my tractor is a bit unique and we all have different ideas and goals but seeing the various working systems on the forum is great for the development of ideas. I think the only real flaw with mine is the availability of the compression springs - they came out of a selection  box so I don't have a spec or part number for them. By pure luck the pedal pressure and travel seems about right (though they were the second choice from the box) 

 

I think I mentioned somewhere that I find the pedal on the 520LXI quite fierce if you use it as a rocker so I'd be interested to hear about your experiences with your rocking pedal...I guess it is all in the travel/spring return etc etc and yours might be set up rather better than mine. Having just had my maiden voyage (I cut the lawn), I have to say I quite like the toe lift idea, though I perhaps wouldn't want to reverse very far with it!

 

Anyway, what an excellent forum this is! Cheers!

[Bill D 1,920]

1 hour ago, Damien Walker said:

Hi Bill, it was more seeing the different variations of what is possible than your actual design....you probably saved me a few iterations. I'm not saying mine is any better - my tractor is a bit unique and we all have different ideas and goals but seeing the various working systems on the forum is great for the development of ideas. I think the only real flaw with mine is the availability of the compression springs - they came out of a selection  box so I don't have a spec or part number for them. By pure luck the pedal pressure and travel seems about right (though they were the second choice from the box) 

 

I think I mentioned somewhere that I find the pedal on the 520LXI quite fierce if you use it as a rocker so I'd be interested to hear about your experiences with your rocking pedal...I guess it is all in the travel/spring return etc etc and yours might be set up rather better than mine. Having just had my maiden voyage (I cut the lawn), I have to say I quite like the toe lift idea, though I perhaps wouldn't want to reverse very far with it!

 

Anyway, what an excellent forum this is! Cheers!

Hi, Damien,

 

My rocker pedal is loosely based on the OEM style pedal setup.  I need to add a heel rest to it.  I've also considered changing the pedal design totally using a piece of flat stock, shaft collar and 1/2" rod to make a non rocker style set up.  Could you share some cad drawings of the rod.  Your design has given me an idea for a different pedal design and auto centering setup.  What did you use to bend the rod and what material is it?  Looks like DOM tubing.  Thanks,  Bill.

[Damien Walker 246]

2 hours ago, Bill D said:

Hi, Damien,

 

My rocker pedal is loosely based on the OEM style pedal setup.  I need to add a heel rest to it.  I've also considered changing the pedal design totally using a piece of flat stock, shaft collar and 1/2" rod to make a non rocker style set up.  Could you share some cad drawings of the rod.  Your design has given me an idea for a different pedal design and auto centering setup.  What did you use to bend the rod and what material is it?  Looks like DOM tubing.  Thanks,  Bill.

 

I'll try to draw it up over the next couple of days (I'm away tomorrow). Material is 10mm mild bright mild steel rod for the top end and dog leg section and the horizontal section, where the springs are, is 8mm silver steel.  As mentioned, I started with left and right hand female 1/4-28 threads cut (with a tap) into either end but with the change to 8mm silver steel (and because I found a 6mm Heim joint with a permanent stud through the ball), I changed the bottom end to M6 threads. This means the 8mm silver steel section has an M6 male thread at both ends. There's a spacer at the bottom too which separates the ball stud on the lower Heim joint away from the pedal crank by 35-40mm if I recall, so that has an M6 female thread to take the Heim ball stud on one end and an M6 male on the other to screw into the pedal crank. There's nothing special about the permanent stud Heim joint, I just happened to have one - an ordinary joint with a bolt will do just as well.

 

I have a 30Ton hydraulic press,  so bending is a trivial exercise , but it's not all that difficult with a vice and a hammer or a length of gas pipe. You could possibly use 8mm for the full length too and that would obviously be much easier to bend but with a reduction in stiffness, not that there is any strain on the dog leg at all.

 

Incidentally, I think my pedal will work with the rotavator and the bulldozer blade because it is essentially just a standard 8-Speed brake pedal. If my recollection is correct, I think I have clearance issues with the blade operating handle on my standard C175 anyway so will almost certainly have the same problem with the 518H (there's my next project!)

 

I suppose what I really should do is make a full 3D drawing and then it will be fully documented (watch this space). Hey if we could find someone to manufacture the parts, I could sell some kits! Do you know anyone in China? 

[Mark312H 0]

Thanks Very Much Men for sharing all of your work into these designs! Once I see some cad drawings- due to your help- I’ll begin my conversion! I have the 312 Series- Not sure I hearing design specifics the 312 - This is my 1st Wheel Horse/Toro- which I do like - Do these other series require the column control handle pushed downward from the neutral position before being able to reverse? (Without tearing into it due to peak mowing season ) trying to picture how the foot pedal accommodates this action??

Sincere Thanks again! I look forward to future posts!

Mark M.

[Lee1977 6,657]

One question the angle of the pedal crank in relation with the pedal.

[Damien Walker 246]

4 hours ago, Mark312H said:

Thanks Very Much Men for sharing all of your work into these designs! Once I see some cad drawings- due to your help- I’ll begin my conversion! I have the 312 Series- Not sure I hearing design specifics the 312 - This is my 1st Wheel Horse/Toro- which I do like - Do these other series require the column control handle pushed downward from the neutral position before being able to reverse? (Without tearing into it due to peak mowing season ) trying to picture how the foot pedal accommodates this action??

Sincere Thanks again! I look forward to future posts!

Mark M.

Hi Mark, the basic tractor chassis is identical across the whole range so the 312 and 518 should be no different as far as I am aware. Please be aware that my tractor has power steering and so doesn't have the longitudinal steering shaft and the flag gear at the bottom of the steering column. The concern I have therefore is that on full right hand lock, the flag gear overlaps the right hand chassis rail and there might not be enough room for the pushrod. I'm awsy at the moment but will try to have a look at my C175 (again, it's the same tractor undermeath) when I get back.

 

Yes, my 518 originally had the lift/push down motion lever so I removed the gate that controls that and the associated microswitch. The wiring to the microswitch then needs to have a jumper to make the tractor think it is in neutral. I have retained the motion control lever and it still goes up and down, but there's no gate and no electric interlock.

 

I'm thinking of writing up my conversion as a separate document.. so I'd best get on with it!

[Damien Walker 246]

48 minutes ago, Lee1977 said:

One question the angle of the pedal crank in relation with the pedal.

That is a very astute question Lee! The crank is broadly speaking in line with the pedal arm. Any 'error' here would have to be taken up by the length of the pushrod. I actually aligned the front edge of the crank with the front(as you look at the tractor) edge of the pedal arm....again, this is something I could draw up.

[Lee1977 6,657]

1 hour ago, Damien Walker said:

That is a very astute question Lee! The crank is broadly speaking in line with the pedal arm. Any 'error' here would have to be taken up by the length of the pushrod. I actually aligned the front edge of the crank with the front(as you look at the tractor) edge of the pedal arm....again, this is something I could draw up.

No drawing is needed as it didn't show behind the belt guard,I desided to ask.  As I understand the rod adjustment would take care of the alinement. 

[Damien Walker 246]

1 hour ago, Lee1977 said:

No drawing is needed as it didn't show behind the belt guard,I desided to ask.  As I understand the rod adjustment would take 

You can see the position of the crank in the previous picture of course...but not the pedal.

 

The problem with all of this is juggling all of the variables and achieving a workable compromise: you need the right amount of travel, you need a pushrod long enough to take whatever springs you use and everything needs to line up and give you a comfortable pedal position.

 

Arguably, in the neutral position, the crank should be vertical, but that didn't give enough pushrod length for the springs I was using....

[Bill D 1,920]

I'm curious how this setup works with the belt guard.? I was looking at my 416 and it looks like the crank in the pedal will hit the belt guard lower mounting tab.  I'm thinking of making a different style pedal than the one on my GT 1800 that is truly bolt on with no drilling or cutting required if possible.  Pictures of this area please.  Thanks 

Edited June 2, 2023 by Bill D

[Damien Walker 246]

29 minutes ago, Bill D said:

I'm curious how this setup works with the belt guard.? I was looking at my 416 and it looks like the crank in the pedal will hit the belt guard lower mounting tab.  I'm thinking of making a different style pedal than the one on my GT 1800 that is truly bolt on with no drilling or cutting required if possible.  Pictures of this area please.  Thanks 

Hey Bill, you are very observant! I forgot about the belt guard entirely and had decided that all would fit very nicely and bingo, it doesn't. You are absolutely right, the belt guard lower mounting tab interferes with t he pedal crank.

 

Damn!

 

I have to admit that I simply cut the tab off, but I did add a second bolt on the bottom edge - to the footplate flange, giving three mounting bolts in total. Incidentally, I am now using Rivnuts for these screws....I think I lost the original speed nut so replaced it with a rivnut when I rebuilt the tractor and obviously added the second when I realised this mistake!

[Damien Walker 246]

'Giving three mounting  bolts in total'

 

That's not correct, I forgot about the two that hold the top cover plate down...they screw into the belt guard.

 

Ie with my extra one, there's five bolts in total!

 

2x on the top cover plate

2x sideways into the footplate at the bottom of the guard

1x into the bracket up by the rear cylinder cooling fins.

 

[Damien Walker 246]

I have spent the day creating a full 3D drawing...hopefully this will clarify how my system functions.

 

I also looked at my C175 and it is now clear that my system as described WILL NOT WORK with a standard manual steering tractor. It only works with my 518H because the addition of power steering has removed the steering flag gear which would conflict with my pushrod on right hand lock.

 

I think my system will essentially still work, but it will require a different pushrod and fork arrangement. I think it is do-able and so will attempt to create a drawing of what I think is required over the next couple of days...hopefully that will help. (See above: Bill D has also noticed that I had to cut off the belt guard lower mounting tab because it interferes with the pedal crank).

 

Other than that, I will attempt to breakdown my drawing into a parts list and individual dimensioned drawings asap and as with my power steering conversion, I'll try to write up a step by step instruction.

[Damien Walker 246]

Dear All, I have done some measuring and have created this drawing:

I have not built this (yet - but have no immediate plans to convert my C175, I have other jobs to do first).

 

Observations:

1) The pushrod is much straighter than my original (Good!)

2) The fork will be more tricky to mount because it's inside the lower console unit and access will be difficult (Bad!). CAD might be able to predict where the drill the holes though, which  would make things considerably more easy.

3) The motion of the  pushrod is a little difficult to predict but the top half is nominally in line with the direction of pull from the pedal so I think it should  be ok. (Good!)

 

I have tried to get the dimensions right for all of this but obviously the proof of the pudding would be for someone to try building one...my point is that it appears my pedal and centring spring arrangement should work for manual steering tractors...but possibly with a bit of a tweek here and there for the shape of the pushrod and the position of the fork  mounting.

 

As an initial guide, the distance between the ball centres of the two Heim joints appears to be 445mm so the pushrod would need to be a bit longer to accommodate the bend.

 

Apologies, you still have to cut off the Belt Guard Lower mounting tab!

 

[Bill D 1,920]

2 hours ago, Damien Walker said:

Dear All, I have done some measuring and have created this drawing:

I have not built this (yet - but have no immediate plans to convert my C175, I have other jobs to do first).

 

Observations:

1) The pushrod is much straighter than my original (Good!)

2) The fork will be more tricky to mount because it's inside the lower console unit and access will be difficult (Bad!). CAD might be able to predict where the drill the holes though, which  would make things considerably more easy.

3) The motion of the  pushrod is a little difficult to predict but the top half is nominally in line with the direction of pull from the pedal so I think it should  be ok. (Good!)

 

I have tried to get the dimensions right for all of this but obviously the proof of the pudding would be for someone to try building one...my point is that it appears my pedal and centring spring arrangement should work for manual steering tractors...but possibly with a bit of a tweek here and there for the shape of the pushrod and the position of the fork  mounting.

 

As an initial guide, the distance between the ball centres of the two Heim joints appears to be 445mm so the pushrod would need to be a bit longer to accommodate the bend.

 

Apologies, you still have to cut off the Belt Guard Lower mounting tab!

 

I like the changes.  Any chance you can clock the arm on the pedal closer to the 10 o'clock position and possibly change how it's welded to the pedal so you don't have to cut the belt guard mounting tab off.  I personally think that pedal and push rod design coupled with Matt's return to neutral setup would work great.  Also, can you convert your drawings to non metric measurements for us crazy Americans.  Thanks.

[Lee1977 6,657]

Bill, Prime Line has PDF catalog with a metric Conversion Chart that goes to 3" . You can do a little adding and get inch measurments. Damien has better things to do then convert to inch measurents.

[Damien Walker 246]

Hi Bill, the crank simply gets in the way of belt guard mounting tab....here's a spare guard showing the problem:

 

Conceivably then, you could change the angle of the crank w.r.t. the pedal, but my guess is that the crank would have to lean backwards quite steeply which would worsen the pushrod approach angle and probably limit the pedal travel. I am unfortunately long past the stage of brazing the crank on so I can't experiment for you, but there may be mileage in your suggestion. I can try to add the belt guard mount into my model and see what that does to everything else.... I admire your wish to keep things as standard as possible, that is usually my mantra too but I was beyond the point of no return for this one when I found out and actually think the bent metal strip that masquerades as a guard mounting is a bit rubbish (I've had them crack off before now) so as mentioned, my solution to my non-recoverable situation was to involve the decisive use of my angle grinder! I can vouch for my non-standard guard mounting solution though...it's far better than the original (honest!).

 

Yes, Matt's return spring solution will surely work well and it only requires one spring (doesn't work for me due to power steering pipes) but it occurs to me that you could mount my compression spring system at the rear end of the pushrod....this would be reasonably accessible under centre cover plate. Marking the mounting holes for the fork would be much much easier than where I suggested in my drawing.

 

As for those ghastly metric dimensions, I am old enough to understand the imperial system well and in some ways prefer it - you Americans aren't that crazy really! When it comes to engineering though, they are now a bit of a nightmare over here because imperial sized stuff is either not easily available or expensive and our dear government probably made it illegal to sell imperial sized Rose joints anyway (they DID make it illegal to sell bananas  in pounds rather than kilograms). Decimal inches is probably the way to go, but the imperial screw sizes are a bit hopeless: 1/4" - 28 makes a lot of sense, but what the heck is a #12-28 from the same series! I see Lee has ticked you off for asking (thanks Lee, much appreciated ) but assuming we can stabilise what I am drawing, it may be that the CAD system will do it for us.....the only problem is that you won't get useful sizes. 10mm for example is 0.394" which is a tad larger than 3/8"! What I really should have done is accepted that Wheelhorses are imperial tractors and designed in imperial.....and then struggled to buy joints and fasteners for months. As it happens, when I came to use the left hand 1/4-28 Heim joints, I found they had shipped 6mm instead  I blame Napoleon!

 

An earlier incarnation of my drawing for manual tractors still had a horizontal pushrod but elevated somewhat with the difference in height from the pushrod to the crank being taken up by a right angle bend in the pushrod. I decided that wasn't so good and came up with the version I presented above. Now that we're talking about belt guards though, may be my original idea was not so bad after all. 

 

Let me see what I can do with the CAD...it's quite intoxicating when you get into it and the practice is good for me. I learned how to draw a spring for this exercise for starters!)

 

Finally, conversion to imperial is dead easy with a calculator....simply divide the mm by 25.4 and you have inches (but I guess you already know that 😉)

 

 

[Bill D 1,920]

4 hours ago, Lee1977 said:

Bill, Prime Line has PDF catalog with a metric Conversion Chart that goes to 3" . You can do a little adding and get inch measurments. Damien has better things to do then convert to inch measurents.

Thanks for the information.  I'm sure he has better things to do.  Just thought I'd ask.  Figured it couldn't hurt.

Edited June 4, 2023 by Bill D