Briggs V-Twin swap/PTO question

[ebinmaine 67,540]

I've got this Briggs 20 HP V-Twin and I'm thinking about potential usages. 

 

I borrowed this quote from another thread:

"The K-181 uses a 6935 bearing while the 341 uses a 6658 bearing."

@Racinbob

 

 

Because the Briggs has the same diameter crankshaft as a small block Kohler engine I can see what bearing to use there.

 

How much length needs to be sticking out from the side of the engine for the PTO Bell to hang properly?

 

 

 

 

[pfrederi 17,741]

3-1/4" crankshaft length should be adequate

[bds1984 1,429]

I would be more concerned that the PTO side of the crank has ball bearings to support a WH style PTO.  I am fairly sure that the higher HP Vanguard engines of that era have the proper bearings  you'll need.

[ebinmaine 67,540]

1 hour ago, bds1984 said:

I would be more concerned that the PTO side of the crank has ball bearings to support a WH style PTO.  I am fairly sure that the higher HP Vanguard engines of that era have the proper bearings  you'll need.

Excellent point. Thank you.

[pfrederi 17,741]

Looking at you picture again looks like a love joy connector on the crank shaft.  Probably for a pump and lokos kinda short for Wheel horse drive pulley and PTO setup.

[ebinmaine 67,540]

1 minute ago, pfrederi said:

Looking at you picture again looks like a love joy connector on the crank shaft.  Probably for a pump and lokos kinda short for Wheel horse drive pulley and PTO setup.

 

 

It was "poorly adapted" into a Case 400 series tractor. 

 

 

[kpinnc 12,065]

12 hours ago, bds1984 said:

I would be more concerned that the PTO side of the crank has ball bearings to support a WH style PTO.  I am fairly sure that the higher HP Vanguard engines of that era have the proper bearings  you'll need.

 

The "small block" Vanguard horizontal engines (like Eb's 20hp) have a ball bearing on the PTO side. The verticals and anything over 23hp do not. 

 

I've never seen a deflector over the manifold like that, but the lovejoy connector seems far out enough to use with a PTO. Mine are 1 x 3 inch shafts. 

Edited May 23, 2023 by kpinnc

[ebinmaine 67,540]

3 hours ago, kpinnc said:

 

The "small block" Vanguard horizontal engines (like Eb's 20hp) have a ball bearing on the PTO side. The verticals and anything over 23hp do not. 

 

I've never seen a deflector over the manifold like that, but the lovejoy connector seems far out enough to use with a PTO. Mine are 1 x 3 inch shafts. 

@kpinnc

Thanks for your reply.  

I was hoping you'd chime in. 

 

What machines have you popped one of these into?

 

I've got a 75 C160-8 I'm thinking about grafting mine in. 

I know I'll need to relocate the muffler and make an adapter plate for the bottom. 

Other than that.....?

 

 

[kpinnc 12,065]

3 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

I know I'll need to relocate the muffler and make an adapter plate for the bottom. 

Other than that.....?

 

Just give a test fit on the breather and the hood. You should be ok. 

[ebinmaine 67,540]

1 hour ago, kpinnc said:

 

Just give a test fit on the breather and the hood. You should be ok. 

I have a C series hood that's pretty beat up. Might be able to "trim" it a little.  

[kpinnc 12,065]

1 hour ago, ebinmaine said:

I have a C series hood that's pretty beat up. Might be able to "trim" it a little.  

 

There are a few breather options on the Vanguard engine. The early models used a smaller breather and automotive type air filter. There are also remote filter systems. 

 

I haven't tried a C series for fitment, but @Don1977 has. He might be more help than I am with that specific tractor. I think he modded his own. 

[ebinmaine 67,540]

6 minutes ago, kpinnc said:

 

There are a few breather options on the Vanguard engine. The early models used a smaller breather and automotive type air filter. There are also remote filter systems. 

 

I haven't tried a C series for fitment, but @Don1977 has. He might be more help than I am with that specific tractor. I think he modded his own. 

 

Using that handle is proof that you've been around a while..

😁. 

 

@Lee1977   

 

 

[Lee1977 6,663]

Kelvin was around before I joined.

There isn't any room to spare with a Vanguard on a c-series it takes it all. It's best to match the PTO location so you don't need a different drive belt. Kelvin has the best engine mount He used my ideal and improved upon it. Using a steel plate with two angles. the angles are bolted down at the Kohler locations and the Vanguard is bolted to the raised plate. You will have to look a Kelvin's for that. I'll get you some pictures of how tight mine fits. I can get you some close up if you need them.

 

Edited May 23, 2023 by Lee1977

[bds1984 1,429]

10 hours ago, kpinnc said:

 

The "small block" Vanguard horizontal engines (like Eb's 20hp) have a ball bearing on the PTO side. The verticals and anything over 23hp do not. 

That was my assumption, but I don't really want to assume too much.  Most people I've talked opposed B&S engines with have NEVER seen one with an oil filter and swore they never existed until I showed them examples I've ran for years So I'm not going to make crazy assumptions.  

[Lee1977 6,663]

My 16 Vanguard came with an oil filter I bought it in 1990.  The one shown above is an 18 bought in 2010.put out a constant oil pressure of 40 PSI 

[ebinmaine 67,540]

43 minutes ago, Lee1977 said:

isn't any room to spare with a Vanguard on a c-series it takes it all. It's best to match the PTO location so you don't need a different drive belt.

Looks like that fits tight but well.  

 

We have a motorcycle battery I can use now that it's outta Trina's Military Tribute Tractor.  

That would free up a bit of room.   

 

Definitely like the idea of keeping the PTO pulley exactly where it was.  

 

 

[kpinnc 12,065]

2 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

Using that handle is proof that you've been around a while..

 

Oh good grief I knew better. Just a crazy morning!

 

@Lee1977 so sorry about that!

 

 

[kpinnc 12,065]

49 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

Definitely like the idea of keeping the PTO pulley exactly where it was.  

 

 

I don't have many pics of the mount I built, but as Don said it's just some angle and flat bar. The Vanguard footprint is really small, and can fit inside the typical Kohler bolt pattern. What will bite you is making sure the side-to-side PTO placement is correct. My Vanguard is set about an inch towards the flywheel side to align the main drive pulley as well. Of course that is where the breather issue gets worse as well.

 

 

[Lee1977 6,663]

3 hours ago, kpinnc said:

 

Oh good grief I knew better. Just a crazy morning!

 

@Lee1977 so sorry about that!

 

 

I answer to both names. I used Lee to get back on the forum when the forum crashed a couple of times  I had changed  my email also.

[ebinmaine 67,540]

3 hours ago, kpinnc said:

making sure the side-to-side PTO placement is correct. My Vanguard is set about an inch towards the flywheel side to align the main drive pulley as well. Of course that is where the breather issue gets worse as well.

 

 

Good info.  

I'll double check all that. 

The air breather/cleaner may not be as much of an issue for me.  

I'm not big on cutting sheet metal normally but this hood is already pretty u.. m.. assisted.  😄.  

 

 

Do you know off the top of your head how the wiring should be set up?

Should be a kill/ground wire right?

 

 

[kpinnc 12,065]

6 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

Do you know off the top of your head how the wiring should be set up?

Should be a kill/ground wire right?

 

Yep. Just like a Kohler Magnum. There should also be an oil pressure switch by the filter that should wire to your magnetos. It won't allow the magnetos to fire until 5psi, and will kill the engine if it drops as well. Free insurance! 

Edited May 24, 2023 by kpinnc

[Lee1977 6,663]

 

 

I bought my Vanguards with the switch on the engine. The wiring was long enough to reach the switch location on the C-120. I don't know which pole the kill/ground wire goes to.

I'll have to pull the gas tank to see the key switch on the 18 Vanguard, I was planning to do that to get the 16 Vanguard wired on the 312-8.

 

[ebinmaine 67,540]

2 hours ago, Lee1977 said:

 

 

I bought my Vanguards with the switch on the engine. The wiring was long enough to reach the switch location on the C-120. I don't know which pole the kill/ground wire goes to.

I'll have to pull the gas tank to see the key switch on the 18 Vanguard, I was planning to do that to get the 16 Vanguard wired on the 312-8.

 

 

 

Am I correct in thinking that when you went from a battery points ignition on the Kohler to the magneto ignition on the Briggs and Stratton you must have changed ignition switches the original 103990 to the 103991...?

 

 

[Lee1977 6,663]

42 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

 

 

Am I correct in thinking that when you went from a battery points ignition on the Kohler to the magneto ignition on the Briggs and Stratton you must have changed ignition switches the original 103990 to the 103991...?

 

 

I used the switch that came mounted on the Vanguard. I want know until I compare switches from the Kohler Magnum and the Vanguard. The switches work the same, not sure it's the same switch  The switch could be  arranged different, they like to sell parts.

[Lee1977 6,663]

Couple more pioctures of how close the Vanguard fits in a C-series.

That's a split rubber hose over the end of the gas tank support.

2" tail pipe with nothing in it and 3/4" conduit .

Works like a mussel brake it defusses sound. I" warsher and two 3/4" washers with 1/4" nuts drilled out between them.