416H, 416-8, 520H or 520-8, Which is preferred and why?

[SirRealEd 1]

Noob here,

 

I am looking a buying a used Wheelhorse and wanted to get members opinions on which model, engine, and transmission they preferred.

 

All opinions are welcome, especially related to reliability and longevity.

 

Is the Onan P216 engine inherently more or less reliable than the P220G?

 

Hydro trans or 8 speed?

 

Any thoughts on what to examine or test before buying?

 

thanks in advance for your input!!

[Sparky-(Admin) 22,170]

   I think the Onan 16 is a more dependable power plant over the 20. You almost never hear about the dreaded valve seat issue with the smaller HP. 
  Hydro over 8 speed: kinda depends on what you might do with it. I personally prefer the manual gearbox. 

[squonk 42,587]

Depends on the yard. If you have a lot of trees and flower beds to mow around get a hydro.

[Chaz54 70]

Here’s a prior discussion on 8-speed vs hydro. A good point is tractors with hydro trans and a hydraulic lift.

 

 

[Ed Kennell 40,541]

Any tractor as long as it's a hydro with foot control and hydraulic lift.         My three    520H,  417A,  312H all have Eaton 1100 hydros.

[pfrederi 18,341]

Okay I have to sign in here...I have 5 or 6 Sunstrand Charger Electros  several up engined to K341s The do they do the job. Blowing, plowing snow mowing grass.  Lot Cheaper to buy than 500 series no electrical problems and no valve seat isssues and easy to fix  (yes even the hydro units aren't that hard)..

[rmaynard 15,932]

I currently have 2 hydros, 5 manuals. Ten years ago, I would have never had a hydro. But as I got older, I found that a hydro with hydro lift and a foot pedal motion control suits me just fine. My daily worker is a 416-H with foot control and hydro lift. I have not had the nightmares that come standard on the 20 hp Onan engines. Again it all depends on what you are going to do with your tractor. My grandsons love the manual transmissions and I always take a couple of them to shows for fun. Plowing snow, I like the hydro. Cutting grass, hydro. Just me. I'm 73.

[EB-80/8inPA 1,796]

Intended use matters.  I bought my C160 Auto with hydraulic lift to power a snow blower.  As a borderline old geezer, there was no way I was going to heist that with a lever (which is frequently required when changing grades a lot).  I didn’t want to have less than a 16HP engine to power the blower, either.  Most people seem to prefer an automatic for snow plowing, too.  I do prefer my 8-speeds for all around work though.

[clueless 3,114]

1977 C-160 auto .

[Sailman 1,299]

Hydro with hydro lift is mighty fine. 8 speed for pure grunt work. Kohler K series with no idiot lights for me...

[Wheel-N-It 2,971]

Ditto on appreciating a hydro as I got older. I like pulling the lawn sweeper and the driveway rake (bought at the big show last year) with a hydro. For mowing with a Wheel Horse I'm still an 8-speed guy. 

And to be honest, most of my mowing is now done with a 2022 Hustler Fast Track, and of course being a zero turn, its a hydro. For hills and rough areas, I still use either the 416-8 or 414-8.with 48" side discharge decks.

[lynnmor 7,577]

9 hours ago, SirRealEd said:

9 hours ago, SirRealEd said:

I am looking a buying a used Wheelhorse and wanted to get members opinions on which model, engine, and transmission they preferred.

All opinions are welcome, especially related to reliability and longevity.

Is the Onan P216 engine inherently more or less reliable than the P220G?

They are almost identical, the 20 HP has a bit more aggressive camshaft.  Reliability will depend on maintenance and abuse.

9 hours ago, SirRealEd said:

Hydro trans or 8 speed?

If you will use a rototiller, then get a stick shift, otherwise get a hydro.  There is no need for a foot control, I survived for 32 years by actually using my hand and keeping my foot on the foot board.

9 hours ago, SirRealEd said:

Any thoughts on what to examine or test before buying?

If allowed, check the compression in both cylinders, if under 100psi keep looking.

 

[Bill D 2,097]

Buy both a 416-8 and 416-H 😃.  The 16 is much more reliable than the 20, very few valve seat issues.  Eaton hydros are virtually bulletproof.  The 8 speeds have 1-1/8" axle shafts and 8 pinion differentials.  

 

The downsides,  plan on a governor flyball spacer replacement at some point, Onan parts are expensive and many are being discontinued.   

[Handy Don 13,340]

13 hours ago, Bill D said:

The downsides,  plan on a governor flyball spacer replacement at some point, Onan parts are expensive and many are being discontinued.   

The P21x engines are quite good if looked after, especially keeping them clean under the tins and with the oil filter shroud gasket in place to assure proper cooling. Their fuel consumption is higher for the extra power, of course. Unless you really need the extra 2 or 4 ponies, a 16 can be a great deal.

The 16 has a slightly smaller displacement than the 18 and 20. The 20 uses a different (more aggressive) camshaft and carb jets.

The flyball spacer is the same for P216-P220 engines, so a parts engine with a good spacer can be a useful investment (also for starter, muffler, manifold, solenoid, coil, tins, etc.)

[SirRealEd 1]

On 5/21/2023 at 3:47 PM, Chaz54 said:

Here’s a prior discussion on 8-speed vs hydro. A good point is tractors with hydro trans and a hydraulic lift.

 

Excellent discussion!  I agree with the different viewpoints on Hydro usage vs. gear drive usage.  Different tools for different jobs!

 

 

[SirRealEd 1]

Excellent information.  I thank one and all for their respective guidance & wisdom.  Have also spoken to Mark & Danny and learned a lot from both.

 

My search & my quest for knowledge continues.  Please keep the opinions coming.

 

A 257H is not too far away.  Any opinions on that?

[c-series don 9,454]

What are your intended uses for this tractor? That would help determine what may best suit your needs. 

[mrc 876]

i told this little story a looong time ago on this site.

 

years ago my face was level with the belt guard and pto area. it was an onan powered wh tractor.  i was wearing a baseball hat.  i was just behind the pto (towards the seat)  the hat stayed on my head.  as i moved forward of the pto the hat blew off my head QUICKLY!   so now any onan powered wh tractor i own gets the belt guard ventilated.  also, onans use to be in generators and welders with high hours and you never here about the valve seat issue in those applications.  conclusion: airflow is key!

[Handy Don 13,340]

59 minutes ago, SirRealEd said:

A 257H is not too far away.  

These are well built, but are at the lawn tractor end of the spectrum. Lawn mowing, light to moderate snow removal, cart or sweeper pulling, etc. are in their wheelhouse. The transmissions are not as stout as on the garden tractors. These are not for heavy snow plow/blow or soil plowing or a wide mower deck. Max width of mower decks is, I think, 37” cut.

[lynnmor 7,577]

40 minutes ago, mrc said:

i told this little story a looong time ago on this site.

 

years ago my face was level with the belt guard and pto area. it was an onan powered wh tractor.  i was wearing a baseball hat.  i was just behind the pto (towards the seat)  the hat stayed on my head.  as i moved forward of the pto the hat blew off my head QUICKLY!   so now any onan powered wh tractor i own gets the belt guard ventilated.  also, onans use to be in generators and welders with high hours and you never here about the valve seat issue in those applications.  conclusion: airflow is key!

If enough air was being moved to blow off hats, perhaps the engine was being adequately cooled.

 

Lawn and garden tractors are run in a debris rich environment unlike generators.  The Onans move enough air to run full power at 1800 RPM a typical generator speed.  Keep the cooling fins clean and the gasket around the oil filter in place and there should be no overheating problem especially if you run at the recommended 3600 RPM.

[SirRealEd 1]

15 hours ago, c-series don said:

What are your intended uses for this tractor? That would help determine what may best suit your needs. 

 

Pretty much looking for a multi-purpose lawn mower.  The best tool, IMO, for my various situations is probably a 36" walk behind with dual hydros, but those are usually rare and expensive.

 

42" deck and narrower.

 

I was looking more for wisdom and experience concerning reliability, than "you need to get one of these" advice.  Although, "you need to get one of these" would also be a welcomed opinion(s). 

 

I appreciate all of the responses so far.  Great group of "consultants!"

 

I like to cut my grass tall (4.5-5").

Due to some off the rough trails I travel to get to the grass, it would be nice to lift the mower deck 8-10" off the ground.  

Obviously not possible with a belly mower, just wishful thinking. 

[Handy Don 13,340]

28 minutes ago, SirRealEd said:

I like to cut my grass tall (4.5-5").

Due to some off the rough trails I travel to get to the grass, it would be nice to lift the mower deck 8-10" off the ground.  

Obviously not possible with a belly mower, just wishful thinking.

None of the standard WH models with belly mowers will come close to 4.5-5.0” cuts without modifications to tractor and/or deck.

Your idea of a decent used walk-behind sounds plausible.

Since you aren’t looking for a “fairway” quality cut, perhaps this is a job for a towed rotary mower with its own engine?

[23 Reo 229]

I would suggest something with a Kohler K for a first tractor. As far as transmissions get the tractor in the best condition. I typically use an 8 speed but my 68 Charger 12 with limited slip is a great tractor and better at certain jobs.

[SirRealEd 1]

21 hours ago, Handy Don said:

None of the standard WH models with belly mowers will come close to 4.5-5.0” cuts without modifications to tractor and/or deck.

Your idea of a decent used walk-behind sounds plausible.

Since you aren’t looking for a “fairway” quality cut, perhaps this is a job for a towed rotary mower with its own engine?

 

 

That is an interesting idea.  I know I am looking for a unicorn, since the various areas I mow would all be best mowed by a different type of mower.  This is kind of a brainstorming idea or a project idea as much as looking for an ideal solution.

 

It is really pretty amazing to see the variety of different mowers that WH has produced over the decades.

[SirRealEd 1]

12 hours ago, 23 Reo said:

I would suggest something with a Kohler K for a first tractor. As far as transmissions get the tractor in the best condition. I typically use an 8 speed but my 68 Charger 12 with limited slip is a great tractor and better at certain jobs.

 

 

Mark has also recommended a WH with a Kohler engine.  I have been stunned at the variety of WH mowers that are for sale.  A small short mower would work well the mow the dog running area since it is heavily wooded.  Narrow is better there.