Two Gears At Once

[WHX?? 48,823]

Is ther any way to get them to neutral other than pull the shifter and use the screw driver method?

This is on a early 60s round hood where the dog point is a pain to get at. 

I kinda know what you guys are gonna tell me but was hoping ther was a trick you guys might know.

Ironically this just happened to Dan and I when unloading a 753. We got lucky and it popped out tho. 

[953 nut 55,280]

1 minute ago, WHX?? said:

This is on a early 60s round hood where the dog point is a pain to get at.

Don't have a miracle cure for you.   Had this on a 953 and had to remove the transaxle just to see the dog point. You should be able to get by with the fenders and tool box.

[WHX?? 48,823]

Thanks Richard... can't do it from the front of the hood stand with an allen socket and long extension? 

I haven't checked it out yet. 200 yards from the shop and started to snow... 

[Achto 27,594]

You could always do like a PO did on my 701. Cut the center stand by the shifter hole & peal it back so you get to the dog point. Not a good option but I guess it worked for them.

[WHX?? 48,823]

3 minutes ago, Achto said:

You could always do like a PO did on my 701. Cut the center stand by the shifter hole & peal it back 

Now that took some cahones to tell me that when you dang well how I feel about cutting 60 yo metal... 

[Pullstart 62,905]

You can reach over the top of the trans from underneath.  When I had a three speed in Putt Putt still, I ran another set of nuts on the end of the dog point so I could do all the work with my 7/16” wrench.  

[cafoose 3,355]

1 hour ago, Pullstart said:

I ran another set of nuts

Not the visuals again @SylvanLakeWH will send out the po po

[SylvanLakeWH 25,594]

[953 nut 55,280]

11 hours ago, WHX?? said:

Thanks Richard... can't do it from the front of the hood stand with an allen socket and long extension? 

I haven't checked it out yet. 200 yards from the shop and started to snow... 

You could pull the dog-point that way, might even be able to remove the shift lever but aligning the forks by braille could be a tricky situation.

[Racinbob 11,082]

Check with Steve, I believe he did it with a long 1/8" allen reaching in from the front. I'm not sure there's room for a socket. I just don't recall which model it was. You'll be able to get to the lock nut from above and you'll be able to align the forks as well. 

[wallfish 17,002]

Early 60s round hood. Only 2 bolts hold the spring and fenders on the top of the trans. 

Are you get'n lazy in retirement?

[Pullstart 62,905]

11 minutes ago, wallfish said:

Early 60s round hood. Only 2 bolts hold the spring and fenders on the top of the trans. 

Are you get'n lazy in retirement?

 
Good point John.  Uncle Jim, with the help from your lead mechanic in Red Granite, you might as well tear the trans down and grind the flat in your shift rails so you don’t have the same issue with hydro lock.  

[Racinbob 11,082]

17 minutes ago, Pullstart said:

 
Good point John.  Uncle Jim, with the help from your lead mechanic in Red Granite, you might as well tear the trans down and grind the flat in your shift rails so you don’t have the same issue with hydro lock.  

 

If you're gonna go that far you'd be best just to find a couple of updated shift rails with the deeper neutral detent and the 3/4" stop pin. 

[Ed Kennell 38,196]

13 hours ago, Achto said:

Cut the center stand by the shifter hole & peal it back so you get to the dog point.

Sorta like I did to my 953 to get the gas tank out.     

[squonk 41,136]

52 minutes ago, wallfish said:

Early 60s round hood. Only 2 bolts hold the spring and fenders on the top of the trans. 

Are you get'n lazy in retirement?

Dan must be busy! 

[wallfish 17,002]

My issue on a 654 doing that lock up was solved by changing the shifter to one that wasn't worn flat on the sides. That one gets some pretty quick shifting from 2nd/3rd to reverse when plowing snow and would lock up every once in a while.

You could also weld it up and grind/file to just a little bit bigger ball. It doesn't necessarily need to be perfectly round either, just smooth nice curves on the 2 sides. This prevents the ball from fitting between the 2 forks as them  move allowing them to go into lock mode.

[Pullstart 62,905]

9 minutes ago, wallfish said:

My issue on a 654 doing that lock up was solved by changing the shifter to one that wasn't worn flat on the sides. That one gets some pretty quick shifting from 2nd/3rd to reverse when plowing snow and would lock up every once in a while.

You could also weld it up and grind/file to just a little bit bigger ball. It doesn't necessarily need to be perfectly round either, just smooth nice curves on the 2 sides. This prevents the ball from fitting between the 2 forks as them  move allowing them to go into lock mode.

Will that prevent the hydro lock ability, with the smooth (round) shift rails?  Especially when shifting fast?

[wallfish 17,002]

By "Hydro Lock" you mean two gears at once?

It does prevent because the bigger ball or unworn ball won't allow it because it can't fit through the 2 forks without the first fork moving into neutral

If the forks are worn too then it's still possible but typically it's going to be the combination of both the ball and the forks being worn. A good shifter with a good ball will usually do the trick for those that don't have a welder

Edited March 31, 2023 by wallfish

[Pullstart 62,905]

7 minutes ago, wallfish said:

By "Hydro Lock" you mean two gears at once?

It does prevent because the bigger ball or unworn ball won't allow it because it can't fit through the 2 forks without the first fork moving into neutral

maybe hydraulic vacuum is better?  The round shift rail in a blind hole pulls the shift rail back into the hole once the shifter isn’t present to hold it center.

[squonk 41,136]

Power King T-92 transmissions have the same problem. Ball gets worn down than shifter jams in a couple of gears at once. Welding and reshaping fixes it.

[Racinbob 11,082]

6 minutes ago, Pullstart said:

Will that prevent the hydro lock ability, with the smooth (round) shift rails?  Especially when shifting fast?

 

There are a few ways to help the hydro lock issue including a service bulletin from the early 60's stating that switching to 40w lube will minimize it. It likely did but the flats solved that issue. As far as locking in two gears they finally came up with a solution addressed in service bulletin #60 in 1965. 

 

 

Note the interchangeable newer shift rails on the left compared to the older style on the right. The longer stop pin was key to this working. The first 'newer' style rails just had a deeper neutral detent. I'm guessing a change in the manufacturing process was the reason they started milling the entire circumference. It doesn't matter because the rails only slide side to side and not around. 

 

 

I wish I had a newer set of rails to send you but all I have left are the older style.

[wallfish 17,002]

4 minutes ago, Pullstart said:

maybe hydraulic vacuum is better?  The round shift rail in a blind hole pulls the shift rail back into the hole once the shifter isn’t present to hold it center.

Oh, now I understand what you were referring to.

I believe the little bigger ball will pull the forks a little farther too. That condition gets worse with the ball and forks worn

 

[Racinbob 11,082]

8 minutes ago, Pullstart said:

maybe hydraulic vacuum is better?  The round shift rail in a blind hole pulls the shift rail back into the hole once the shifter isn’t present to hold it center.

 

Exactly. I did a short video in a thread some time ago showing it. The flats helped, the shift rails and stop pin finished it with a mechanical fix. . 

[Ed Kennell 38,196]

Am I glad I have all  foot controlled hydros.   Full forward to full reverse with a wiggle of my big toe.      

[wallfish 17,002]

Mine never did it again after changing the shifter 10+ years ago. Mine may not have been that sucking back hydro issue in the first place. 654 used every winter.

I still have the 100% rebuilt 4 speed trans I bought to replace it sitting on a shelf that I got from Charlie Pitcher way back 2010 maybe? That's where the new shifter came from to change it. Shame it's still sitting there as I almost forgot all about it.

Also did a welder up for a suburban 401 that solved the problem but that one is only a very temp cruise machine with no real test for the quick shifting

Edited March 31, 2023 by wallfish