Minivans...? Thoughts and comments wanted.

[ri702bill 8,316]

2 hours ago, SylvanLakeWH said:

Picked up the van and they had washed and detailed it for us as well!!! 

 

All too often, it's a song & dance to get ANY satisfaction once the warranty has expired.... The "Stealerships" usually keep the "vice" in service......

[wh500special 2,170]

I forgot about the sliding door benefits.  Ed's right, they are great and you can open them fully in the tightest of parking spaces.

 

Regarding the Honda Odyssey if you're interested in that route...

 

Even though I love mine and highly recommend them, there are a few caveats worth evaluating as you shop:

 

Up to 2018 Honda was using the previous generation 3.5L engine.  The engine is smooth, efficient, and mostly bulletproof but was fitted with Variable Cylinder Management (VCM) which allows it to run on 3 cylinders under light load.  Like most of the other manufacturers that do this, Honda didn't get things 100% right and some of the vans wear out rings on the shutdown bank and consume oil.  To say it's "common" isn't really accurate, but it isn't unheard of either.  Prevention is easy by addition of a "muzzler" to keep it from going into 3-cylinder mode.  Fuel economy barely suffers.  in 2018 a new engine was used and the problem went away even though they still implement VCM.  On pre-2018 vans the green "Eco" lamp on the instrument panel is a telltale when the engine is in 3 cylinder mode.  On newer vans there is no telltale and Eco mode does other things independent of VCM.  VCM is not user-selectable in any case under factory configuration.

 

Up until - again - 2018 Honda was using their own 6-speed auto transmission (2011-2017) and 5-speed prior to that.  Heat management and fluid degradation is a real thing in these if not maintained well.  So service records are beneficial.  In 2018 Honda started using both the ZF 9-speed and their own new 10-speed planetary transmission.  Both have been extremely robust in this application.

 

For whatever reason Honda makes these vans easy to maintain.  Everything has a drain and fill plug and DIY is easy.  I don't particularly relish doing PM, but even a trans fluid change is easy on most Hondas as a drain and fill is a neat and tidy procedure.  On the 9 and 10 speeds it's still doable, but you need to be able to monitor transmission temperature so you get the right amount of fluid back in it.  Apparently not a big deal.

 

Honda uses a timing belt that should be replaced at around 100-120k.  It's an interference engine so you take your chances if you skip this service.  Having it done is not cheap, but it's apparently not a horrible job for a DIY person.  I had ours done along with the waterpump at an indy and figured it was an acceptable cost when amortized across that many miles.

 

None of these issues are a big deal in my mind, but worth mentioning so you go into this with both eyes open.  You won't find a van that uses interior space more efficiently than an Odyssey.

 

Other vans...

 

Only Chrysler has fold-in-floor second row seating.  It's enormously convenient if you use the feature frequently, but the seats are not as comfortable for adults as competing vans.  If your 3-4 people use case is only occasional you may find this to be worth the tradeoff.  There are four of us in our family so our second row seats are always in the up position.  Most vans have easy to remove seats but they can be kind of heavy.  I take ours out when I vacuum the van and find it pretty easy despite me being a wimp.

 

I am of the opinion that the most reliable van is the Sienna.  New ones are all 4-cyl Hybrids but previous versions were V6's.  I liked the Honda more when we bought ours, but I know we would have been completely satisfied with the Sienna.

 

Kia/Hyundai and Chrysler aren't for me.  But there are Chrysler dealers and servicing shops pretty much everywhere you go so you'd never be far from help of you did have trouble.  Regardless of how reliable a Honda or Toyota may be, the same can't be said for their dealership network.

 

The Chrysler Pacifica is available as a Plug in Hybrid Electric Vehicle.  This means it's a hybrid V6/electric van with a big battery that will allow it to go about 30 miles before firing up the engine...if you plug it in.  if you never plug it in and just drive it like a normal gas van it will get around 30 mpg and go further than the gas tank will take you in a non-hybrid van.  The battery eliminates the Stow and Go second row capability since it lives under the floor where their storage wells are normally located and it might wipe out the towing capacity.  These should be available used with a $4000 tax credit if you buy from a dealer.  New the credit is up to $7500. You would of course have to do your homework to figure out if you're eligible for these non-refundable credits...in other words, if your tax liability is less than $4000, you don't get the whole credit.

 

I mention the plug in capability because it may make sense for your use case and few people seem to understand what a PHEV is and what vehicles are available with this capability.  If it doesn't fit your use case, then it doesn't.  This will inevitably open the can of worms about all the bad perceptions about electric cars and how they will be the downfall of western civilization...

 

Happy hunting,

Steve

 

Edited March 17, 2023 by wh500special

[clueless 2,987]

Had three of them when the young'ns were glowering up, Dodge/Chrysler , Toyota . The first one was in 1993 it was a 1988 VW Vanagon with the water box (cooling) engine with about 90,000 miles on it. If it wasn't for having to keep replacing hoses, there are at least 10 of them and the smallest was about 7 inch and cost about $50.00 and were they were located and the gas mileage we would probably still be driving it. My wife says it was the best driving one especially on long trips and I agree.

[ericforster 69]

I would definately keep away from any chrysler products. Nice interior but junk tranny. Motor isnt as reliable as honda or toyota. Most of all, like said before, they are kind of turds. I see toyotas and hondas with 250k + miles and still running strong. If your looking for a cool factor, not going to find it in a minivan,  but they are practicle and very useful. You wouldnt have to hook up a trailer to pick up a smaller gt. You can haul whatever you want and lock it inside until you want to unload it. Personally I would probabl buy a ford minivan.  Higher ceiling and built like more of a courier vehicle. 

[ericforster 69]

1 hour ago, wh500special said:

I forgot about the sliding door benefits.  Ed's right, they are great and you can open them fully in the tightest of parking spaces.

 

Regarding the Honda Odyssey if you're interested in that route...

 

Even though I love mine and highly recommend them, there are a few caveats worth evaluating as you shop:

 

Up to 2018 Honda was using the previous generation 3.5L engine.  The engine is smooth, efficient, and mostly bulletproof but was fitted with Variable Cylinder Management (VCM) which allows it to run on 3 cylinders under light load.  Like most of the other manufacturers that do this, Honda didn't get things 100% right and some of the vans wear out rings on the shutdown bank and consume oil.  To say it's "common" isn't really accurate, but it isn't unheard of either.  Prevention is easy by addition of a "muzzler" to keep it from going into 3-cylinder mode.  Fuel economy barely suffers.  in 2018 a new engine was used and the problem went away even though they still implement VCM.  On pre-2018 vans the green "Eco" lamp on the instrument panel is a telltale when the engine is in 3 cylinder mode.  On newer vans there is no telltale and Eco mode does other things independent of VCM.  VCM is not user-selectable in any case under factory configuration.

 

Up until - again - 2018 Honda was using their own 6-speed auto transmission (2011-2017) and 5-speed prior to that.  Heat management and fluid degradation is a real thing in these if not maintained well.  So service records are beneficial.  In 2018 Honda started using both the ZF 9-speed and their own new 10-speed planetary transmission.  Both have been extremely robust in this application.

 

For whatever reason Honda makes these vans easy to maintain.  Everything has a drain and fill plug and DIY is easy.  I don't particularly relish doing PM, but even a trans fluid change is easy on most Hondas as a drain and fill is a neat and tidy procedure.  On the 9 and 10 speeds it's still doable, but you need to be able to monitor transmission temperature so you get the right amount of fluid back in it.  Apparently not a big deal.

 

Honda uses a timing belt that should be replaced at around 100-120k.  It's an interference engine so you take your chances if you skip this service.  Having it done is not cheap, but it's apparently not a horrible job for a DIY person.  I had ours done along with the waterpump at an indy and figured it was an acceptable cost when amortized across that many miles.

 

None of these issues are a big deal in my mind, but worth mentioning so you go into this with both eyes open.  You won't find a van that uses interior space more efficiently than an Odyssey.

 

Other vans...

 

Only Chrysler has fold-in-floor second row seating.  It's enormously convenient if you use the feature frequently, but the seats are not as comfortable for adults as competing vans.  If your 3-4 people use case is only occasional you may find this to be worth the tradeoff.  There are four of us in our family so our second row seats are always in the up position.  Most vans have easy to remove seats but they can be kind of heavy.  I take ours out when I vacuum the van and find it pretty easy despite me being a wimp.

 

I am of the opinion that the most reliable van is the Sienna.  New ones are all 4-cyl Hybrids but previous versions were V6's.  I liked the Honda more when we bought ours, but I know we would have been completely satisfied with the Sienna.

 

Kia/Hyundai and Chrysler aren't for me.  But there are Chrysler dealers and servicing shops pretty much everywhere you go so you'd never be far from help of you did have trouble.  Regardless of how reliable a Honda or Toyota may be, the same can't be said for their dealership network.

 

The Chrysler Pacifica is available as a Plug in Hybrid Electric Vehicle.  This means it's a hybrid V6/electric van with a big battery that will allow it to go about 30 miles before firing up the engine...if you plug it in.  if you never plug it in and just drive it like a normal gas van it will get around 30 mpg and go further than the gas tank will take you in a non-hybrid van.  The battery eliminates the Stow and Go second row capability since it lives under the floor where their storage wells are normally located and it might wipe out the towing capacity.  These should be available used with a $4000 tax credit if you buy from a dealer.  New the credit is up to $7500. You would of course have to do your homework to figure out if you're eligible for these non-refundable credits...in other words, if your tax liability is less than $4000, you don't get the whole credit.

 

I mention the plug in capability because it may make sense for your use case and few people seem to understand what a PHEV is and what vehicles are available with this capability.  If it doesn't fit your use case, then it doesn't.  This will inevitably open the can of worms about all the bad perceptions about electric cars and how they will be the downfall of western civilization...

 

Happy hunting,

Steve

 

Hooe you carry a good generator

[Yossarian 208]

I'll mostly echo what everyone else is saying.  Kids can't ding up other peoples doors in crowded parking lots.  I see trades guys using them all the time for the cargo room. Front captains chairs are super comfy for long rides.  The only thing we ever had a problem with was ground clearance in deep snow.   Kids got bigger and (mostly) more careful with the doors so when the last minivan was totaled  by a deer, my wife found her Honda Pilot.  If I wreck it and die, services will be held for it, not me.

 

If you are considering a Honda anything, use OEM fluids and make sure the gas cap is always FULLY tightened.

 

[ebinmaine 67,431]

3 minutes ago, Yossarian said:

Honda Pilot.  If I wreck it and die, services will be held for it, not me.

 

 

3 minutes ago, Yossarian said:

If you are considering a Honda anything, use OEM fluids and make sure the gas cap is always FULLY tightened

 

I'll second that.   Trina's had a Honda Fit for 5 years. Been a great little rig.  

 

 

The main downfall of any minivan will be the lack of ground clearance.  

 

Interesting you'd bring up the Pilot. That's one of the other vehicles Trina's mulling over.   

 

[Handy Don 12,214]

1 hour ago, ebinmaine said:

The main downfall of any minivan will be the lack of ground clearance.  

I was surprised to learn that the Pacifica PHEV has 5.1” (5.4 with AWD) of clearance. 

Pilot is 7.3; Fit is 5.3.

And hey, the Rivian RTS has 14.9!

[rmaynard 15,436]

13 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

And hey, the Rivian RTS has 14.9!

The only Rivians I have ever seen were hanging off the back of a tow truck. 

[ebinmaine 67,431]

19 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

Pilot is 7.3

This is more in the range of super helpful for being in the Great North Maine Woods.   

[wh500special 2,170]

4 hours ago, ericforster said:

Hooe you carry a good generator

Not following your logic on this.   
 

A PHEV is a Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle. 
 

That means that like a conventional hybrid it has both a gasoline engine and an electric motor that can propel the car either separately or together.  The Plug-in part of the descriptor means that the battery is big enough to provide meaningful driving range strictly on electricity.  For the Pacifica this can be up to 32 miles.
 

When the battery is sufficiently depleted the van operates like a regular hybrid, combining the power of its V6 engine and recouping and reusing energy that is wasted during braking and downhill runs.

 

depending on one’s perspective, it’s the best - or worst - of two worlds. 

 

If you never plug it in you only lose the extra range you’d get from a battery charge. It still drives normally and can take you over the river and through the woods to grandmother’s house just like a 1976 Plymouth Volare station wagon does all while burning decomposed algae and dinosaurs.  

 

No generator needed. 
 

Of course maybe you were referring to the big nor’easter that just hit and its concomitant power outages.  In that case, I agree; it’s good to have a good generator. 
 

steve

Edited March 18, 2023 by wh500special

[Ed Kennell 38,142]

6 minutes ago, wh500special said:

 

A PHEV is a Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle. 

I am on the fence for my next car.   Seems the way to go, but the complicated system has me worried.

Any input out there ...reliability, maintenance, capable service tecs?

[wh500special 2,170]

3 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

  

 

Interesting you'd bring up the Pilot. That's one of the other vehicles Trina's mulling over.   

 

Oh dear, yet another vehicle I can blather on about.  
 

I don’t know how old of a Pilot you’d consider.  The last generation ran from 2016 to 2022 and was a solid, spacious vehicle.  I have the pickup version of the Pilot, the Ridgeline, which shares a ton with the Pilot.  It has some heavier running gear and rides a little stiffer, but is fundamentally the same. 
 

The Pilot enjoys great space efficiency and has all the nooks and crannies for stashing junk that Honda is famous for. The third row is pretty tight and not really meant for anything other than short rides if you’re an average size adult.  But the two primary rows are spacious and comfortable. 
 

I only know of two caveats on the last gen Pilot. First, the 9-speed transmission on the two highest trim levels in the first two model years. Honda was fighting with calibrations and programming and had some resultant drivability and durability issues.   Once ironed out, they were and are solid. 
 

Second, the 6-speed used in the lower trims (and in the Ridgeline as well) have had more than their share of failures.  I don’t know the statistical incidence of them, but it’s more common than you’d expect judging by forum traffic. 
 

 If shopping for a Pilot, pick the 9-speed from about 2018 and newer.  The 9-speed is easily identified by the push button shifter on the console and shift paddles behind the steering wheel.   
 

The AWD system on these vehicles is amazing. While front wheel drive based, the rear wheels engage every time you accelerate.  This ameliorates wheel slippage and makes response instantaneous.  Also, the rear axle is overdriven by 2.7% compared to the front and thrust can be directed to either rear wheel as needed to help the vehicle corner.  It’s quite incredible how well it works to improve handling.  It has normal, snow, mud, and sand modes but you can leave it in normal and not miss anything. 
 

The Pilot is big inside and will seem huge compared to the Fit.  Of course the Odyssey is bigger still.  
 

you can waste hours on Odyclub and Piloteers if you’re so inclined…as you can probably tell, I already have. 
 

Steve

Edited March 18, 2023 by wh500special

[wh500special 2,170]

30 minutes ago, Ed Kennell said:

I am on the fence for my next car.   Seems the way to go, but the complicated system has me worried.

Any input out there ...reliability, maintenance, capable service tecs?

from everything I have seen, the reliability has been quite good on just about all of them.   There have been examples of ghosts in the machines on the earliest Pacifica PHEV’s, but it doesn’t look widespread. Other PHEV’s - the Volt, Clarity, Prius Prime, RAV4 Prime, Hyun ionic, Kia Niro,  Escape, C-max, fusion, Volvos, and BMW’s - have been quite good and very reliable. 
 

I think they are pretty much dealer-only seviceable though aside from regular things like oil, tires, and brakes. 
 

Maintenance is generally tied to engine running hours. So if you spend a lot of time in electric mode they can have once a year oil changes. Brakes should last just about forever since the large battery allows a lot of regenerative braking.  They do force the engine to run at least once in a while to prevent gas in the tank from going bad. 
 

Pre-pandemic I was so close to pulling the trigger on a Volt or Clarity, but I was stubbornly quibbling over getting to the price i wanted to pay.  Then the values of used ones skyrocketed due to the auto industry shortages and i kick myself for not biting the bullet. Used Clarities are literally $7000-$10000 more expensive now than they were when i was looking at them in early 2020.  I was literally $200 away from my target and missed my opportunity. 

For me, compared to my commute in my 23 mpg Ridgeline, the cost would have dropped from almost $10 a day to $1.61 based on my home electric rates.  And I’d only have to stop at the gas station once a month.  my employer is considering installing chargers too, so I conceivably could commute for free if I was really devoted, yet I could hop in the same car and drive to Arendtsville for the show without needing to frequently stop

and wait for hours to charge. 
 

At the risk of going too far off topic, PHEV’s really make the most sense for most people who are even slightly interested in electrification.  They are electric cars that aren’t constrained by long charging times or limited range.  You can commute on electricity and yet drive across country today without anxiety and inconvenience. Plus the smaller batteries could be spread out to greater numbers of Cars to soften the scale-up problems.  
 

Battery capacity seems to also be holding up better than expected and certainly much better than feared.  The early Volts from 2011 are still showing good battery life a decade later.   Very few battery failures have been reported.  Regulations require battery warranties to be at least 8 years and 100k and there is likely a decent margin of safety added to that. 
 

Price wise, I suspect PHEV’s are money losers for the manufacturers and exist only to fill a gap and boost CAFE numbers. The ability to chose propulsion method can be priceless to consumers as a hedge against fluctuations in one market or the other. 
 

that said, it wouldn’t surprise me if Honda and Toyota in particular introduce PHEV versions of their vans and midsize SUV’s.  They are both generally behind the industry on full electrification but already have hybrid platforms that would mostly just need bigger batteries. 
 

I used to be anti-electric and very suspicious of hybrids, but I grew up.  The math shows PHEV’s can make a ton of sense for a lot of people.  I feel this is really where the large vehicle market should go instead of full electrification, but it doesn’t appear to be headed that way.   I’m still agnostic about what is the best technology and am willing to accept whatever makes the most sense. 
 

Steve

[CCW 1,295]

@ebinmaine I'm 69 and on my third minivan.  Each one has been better that the last one.  Currently I drive a Chrysler Pacifica and it is very comfortable.  We are currently on our second trip in it from Connecticut to Texas and back.  This trip will be close to 3000 miles.  I drive it from five to eight hours a day when we are traveling between locations. I would not give up my van for any vehicle.

[Lee1977 6,656]

13 hours ago, Ed Kennell said:

 

Maybe doesn't apply to @ebinmaine, but  the safety and convenience of the sliding doors when loading  kids in traffic, tight parking spaces, and against high curbs was not mentioned.  example...  On our trips to the gym where we have to park in the street against a high curb, Mrs. K rides in the rear passenger seat as you can't open the front swinging door but no problem with the rear slider.      BTW, our Windstars and Grand Caravans have never shown any problem with the doors falling off.

Ours were used to haul sons, grandsons, boy scouts,football and baseball teams.    Today, we no longer need a 7 passenger and are in the market for a smaller car.   But we have not been able to find one that Mrs. K can get in and out of.    Due to back and foot fusions, she has limited use of her left leg and needs a flat floor with no raised side rail to be able enter and exit.

Most small cars you have to get down a crawl in and out if your old and can't bend like a 16 year old. Alton a farmer friend of mine and Vietnam Veteran got all shot up and had only one arm. We out somewhere and he was asked how he like my Toyota 4x4 truck. He told them it's high enough I don't have to get down and crawl in.

[ebinmaine 67,431]

11 hours ago, wh500special said:

don’t know how old of a Pilot you’d consider

Depends on the vehicle in question. 

Trina's seen 2012s that looked good in online listings.   

 

 

[wh500special 2,170]

2012’s…

 

That’s one more generation back than my fetish goes so I don’t know a lot.  The boxy bodies are the best looking of all the Pilot iterations to date.  Many participants on the Pilot forums say these were the best of all the Pilots.  
 

They are all but bulletproof except for the VCM issues and occasional transmission problems.  These have a lot less of the technology crap that is the first thing to fail in a modern car so way, way, way fewer annoyances to be had for the owner. They do have a simpler AWD system than the newer ones. 
 

I wouldn’t steer away from one at all.  Read up on Honda AT5 and AT6 transmissions.  
 

Steve

Edited March 18, 2023 by wh500special

[ebinmaine 67,431]

 

Yesterday afternoon we went to check out vehicles.  

 

We like the practicality of a small van.. a LOT ....

 

but the ground clearance is just... too.. low.. for our trips up North. 

 

Most of the roads up there are no longer maintained for anything smaller than a semi 🚛.  🚚 

 

It's a place we go 2 or 3 times a year so we need a mode of transportation fitted to it. 

 

So we've decided a minivan is no longer viable. 

 

 

Trina's been looking at several Jeeps, Toyota RAV4 and Highlander, Honda Pilot, and some others.  

 

 

At this point she's leaning towards a 2012 to 15 Honda Pilot. 

The storage, both hidden and obvious, is good. The towing capabilities are adequate for now. The size and shape and comfort  feels reasonable to her. 

[peter lena 8,610]

@ebinmaine  what ever you choose , would seriously consider maintenance /  part dependability / availability , and a thorough , interior strip out and lubrication soak , even mineral oil to every seam , and closed box section of it  . did a dodge , van while in the N/G  , picked up a 5 gal pail of cosmoline , cut with  diesel fuel , sprayed / soaked into every possible , joint / seam , wheel well , suspension . let it air out , couple of days , just an idea.pete  

[sscotsman 148]

3 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

 

Yesterday afternoon we went to check out vehicles.  

 

We like the practicality of a small van.. a LOT ....

 

but the ground clearance is just... too.. low.. for our trips up North. 

 

🚚

 

How about a Subaru Outback? Technically considered a SUV, or could even be considered a station wagon.. likely has similar benefits of a minivan, (except for no sliding door) but does have AWD and decent ground clearance. (8.7 to 9.5", depending on trim level.)

Scot

 

 

Edited March 19, 2023 by sscotsman

[Handy Don 12,214]

On 3/19/2023 at 11:04 AM, sscotsman said:

How about a Subaru Outback

Very interesting vehicle. Pretty much in its own class as long roofs (station wagons) have all but disappeared in the U.S.

The AWD system is proven. We have an Impreza and the “power from the wheels that slip to the wheels that grip” slogan applies completely. It is not a “locked” 4WD system but it does better than the usual AWD.

From the 2015 model onward, the road manners have improved a lot (interior sound, handling, fit & finish, etc)

Some will dislike the CVT transmission on principle, but again it is proven to get the job done and to last.

Trailer capacity is less than full-up SUVs in the 4 cylinder trims but fuel economy is better. There is a strong 6 cylinder (touring trim) though its fuel economy is noticeably poorer.

The interior space will surprise you.

There are no hybrid or PHEV versions (yet) but in the last year or two there is a turbo 4-cylinder. (As a side note, the CEO was quite skeptical of electric in all forms and was recently forced out of his job for letting Subaru fall behind the competition--that it took so long is because Subaru is largely owned by Toyota--another EV laggard!)

[kwalshy 229]

On 3/19/2023 at 7:51 AM, ebinmaine said:

 

Yesterday afternoon we went to check out vehicles.  

 

We like the practicality of a small van.. a LOT ....

 

but the ground clearance is just... too.. low.. for our trips up North. 

 

Most of the roads up there are no longer maintained for anything smaller than a semi 🚛.  🚚 

 

It's a place we go 2 or 3 times a year so we need a mode of transportation fitted to it. 

 

So we've decided a minivan is no longer viable. 

 

 

Trina's been looking at several Jeeps, Toyota RAV4 and Highlander, Honda Pilot, and some others.  

 

 

At this point she's leaning towards a 2012 to 15 Honda Pilot. 

The storage, both hidden and obvious, is good. The towing capabilities are adequate for now. The size and shape and comfort  feels reasonable to her. 

 Have you considered the Chevy Trailblazer, GMC Acadia?  

Edited March 21, 2023 by kwalshy

[ebinmaine 67,431]

4 minutes ago, kwalshy said:

 Have you considered the GMC Trailblazer?  

I don't think we've had opportunity to see one of those in person yet but I'll definitely let her know to look.  

 

 

[kwalshy 229]

58 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

I don't think we've had opportunity to see one of those in person yet but I'll definitely let her know to look.  

 

 

Eric,

I edited my post, Chevy makes the Trailblazer, GMC version is called the Acadia.  They remind me of the S-10Blazer/ S-15 Jimmy from the 80s.