adding a alternator stator with starter generator kohler engine

[Dr.D 9]

A few winters back I restored-rebuilt a WH854 to new (including rebuilding the original starter generator, trans and replaced the engine with still in the box replacement K181). I had to devolve the 1981 replacement engine to 1964 standard but all parts bolted up without issue. Everything on the 854 presently as factory intended it to be in 1964. 

 

Theory of stock sounds good but one design bug… well… bugs me. No matter what I do… the starter generator does such a poor job of charging the battery. That bugs me. I don’t care if the 854 is a 1964. I should not have to hook up the battery charger as often as I do and I should be able to run lights without issue. Evidently Kohler agreed and solved the problem a few years later with an alternator stator. 

The replacement NOS K181 is-was a 1981 vintage and came in the box with an alternator stator that I ditched for the original 1964 design starter generator. I still have the 1981 parts (flywheel, alternator stator and starter) that I could switch back to how it can in the box but I like the old 1964 starter generator shroud look even if I don’t like living with the older electrical system. 

 

Here is the design proposal question: I have the parts for both… what if Frankenstein both? The 1964 shroud will not fit over the 1981 flywheel but I should be able to bolt the 1981 stator onto the 1964 flywheel, reconnect the block leads and run both (1964 starter generator and 1981 alternator stator). The gain of doing the above would be generating current from both the generator and alternator. Theoretically charging battery faster, and powering any lights I want. Helpful given one of my 854’s new cherished family duties is pulling a cart of children around on Halloween night. 
 

That is where I am left scratching my head. Too much current? Thoughts? 

[squonk 41,088]

Why not fix the starter/generator/voltage regulator? They charge the battery fine when working properly. And maybe your battery is pretty much shot? I have 3 tractors with the old set up and never have to charge any battery

Edited March 13, 2023 by squonk

[Blasterdad 2,692]

                                                     

I would go through your original system & find out what it's doing or not doing before trying to reinvent the wheel.

Probably something minor, easily fixed. Keep us posted! She's a BEAUTY! 

 

Edited March 13, 2023 by Blasterdad

[pfrederi 17,735]

The S/G should generate 12 amps.  Stator alternators were either 10 or 15...Not sure the extra 3 amps (at best) would be a big change

[pacer 3,169]

I agree that you probably have a problem with your existing S/G, when they're right they maintain the batt and lights with ease. Check that out before doing any alterations........

[Racinbob 11,063]

1 hour ago, Dr.D said:

on Halloween night. 

 

Those three words are telling me that on that particular night you are just powering the headlights 

Beautiful Tractor. 

[WHX?? 48,815]

Agreeing with the others about you having an issue. I have 10  tractors with SGs and no problems with any of them. 

If it starts the tractor guessing you have a regulator or wiring problem. Start by doing voltage tests, load test the battery and check wiring. Many times cleaning & adjusting reg contacts are needed.  Are you running an Amp guage? 

As a purist I would like to see you stay orginal. 

Edited March 13, 2023 by WHX??

[WHX?? 48,815]

1 hour ago, Racinbob said:

 

Beautiful Tractor. 

my bad

[ri702bill 8,316]

Gotta pick one and stick with it - I do NOT think you can do both. Is that engine set up for a separate starter - alternator like a C series.?? More amps, less isues...

Bill

[Wayne0 457]

I had an old 10HP Alis Chalmers with a starter/generator and had no problems. If it works don't fix it.

[Handy Don 12,216]

I’d strongly suggest that in doing such a terrific job of restoring that beauty, you may have neglected to assure that the S/G (and voltage regulator) have a solid ground through the S/G housing and mount to the engine block.

 

When I did my 854, including replacing some wiring, I was very careful to make sure that all the obvious electrical connections were clean and solid. I was, however, so thorough with the painting of the individual engine and S/G parts that I effectively insulated the S/G from the electrical ground that it needs. Didn’t get as far as having charging failure, it was the pathetic anemic cranking with a new battery that caused me to slap my forehead with a “DUH!".

 

I had to take apart the entire S/G support assembly mount, scrape off the paint between the components, dab with dielectric grease (to inhibit rust/corrosion), and reassemble. Now, like the other posters above, it is problem free for cranking and charging.

 

A less likely possible issue is if the voltage regulator has failed. Let us know if you need a hand to diagnose that.

[squonk 41,088]

I built an engine run stand and in the process I decided to do a little investigating with dirty/poor  connections. For instance painting the block where the genny mount bolts on and painting the mount itself dropped 3.2 volts as opposed to all the mounting points all clean and shiny. 

[pfrederi 17,735]

I am not sure your dual charging system would work.  I woulld think the two voltage regulators would confuse each other.

 

[wallfish 16,995]

X7

The S/G shouldn't be a problem charging the battery and or running lights. They work well.

Did you change the regulator?

[ri702bill 8,316]

2 hours ago, pfrederi said:

I woulld think the two voltage regulators would confuse each other.

Or worse - the dreaded "Letting of the Magic Smoke"... aka "Electrotoast"    

Edited March 13, 2023 by ri702bill

[squonk 41,088]

17 minutes ago, ri702bill said:

Or worse - the dreaded "Letting of the Magic Smoke"... aks "Electrotoast"    

In GM school is was "Letting the Genie out!" 

[WHX?? 48,815]

2 hours ago, ri702bill said:

Or worse - the dreaded "Letting of the Magic Smoke"... aks "Electrotoast"    

 

1 hour ago, squonk said:

In GM school is was "Letting the Genie out!" 

And how do you guys know about that? 

Squonky's right about the mounting. Since the internals are grounded to the shell make sure the end bells are not rusty and good contact with the shell. 

[WHX?? 48,815]

3 hours ago, Handy Don said:

 

A less likely possible issue is if the voltage regulator has failed. Let us know if you need a hand to diagnose that.

We have some very good manuals here on the regs. So let us know if you need them. 

[squonk 41,088]

17 minutes ago, WHX?? said:

 

And how do you guys know about that? 

 

We let a few Genies out in the first generation ECM's in 79 and 80! 

[WHX?? 48,815]

3 hours ago, wallfish said:

 

Did you change the regulator?

too. I have cleaned up and gotten the most crusty orginals cleaned up and working but I like to try and save just for the halibut. 

I have a good source  for reasonable replacements if needed. 

Edited March 13, 2023 by WHX??

[ri702bill 8,316]

8 minutes ago, squonk said:

And how do you guys know about that? 

Yup - BT,DT. not pretty---- but pretty impressive.....

[Darb1964 1,042]

8 hours ago, squonk said:

Why not fix the starter/generator/voltage regulator? They charge the battery fine when working properly. And maybe your battery is pretty much shot? I have 3 tractors with the old set up and never have to charge any battery

I'm thinking ground, the starter generator is a superior setup in my opinion and experience.

[953 nut 55,208]

8 hours ago, Dr.D said:

what if Frankenstein both? The 1964 shroud will not fit over the 1981 flywheel but I should be able to bolt the 1981 stator onto the 1964 flywheel, reconnect the block leads and run both (1964 starter generator and 1981 alternator stator)

      That is one great looking 854.      

Like others I have S/G Wheel Horses that have never been a problem. I connect the battery ground wire directly to the S/G mounting bolt to ensure a good ground. Have you had the battery load tested? 

Chances are the 1964 flywheel has no magnets inside it to make the stator produce electricity so I'm not too sure your will workout. 

[WHX?? 48,815]

10 minutes ago, Darb1964 said:

, the starter generator is a superior setup in my opinion and experience.

True in my book too Darbs... maybe the one of the reasons I am hooked on on these Ks. 

[Achto 27,570]

4 hours ago, squonk said:

For instance painting the block where the genny mount bolts on and painting the mount itself dropped 3.2 volts as opposed to all the mounting points all clean and shiny. 

 

Ran into this issue myself. The start function did not always work on one of my resto's, After cleaning the paint off from the mounting surfaces for the S/G, it works every time.