1970 wheel horse

[upstate yank 219]

well guys I need your advise as today I was getting my horses ready so when the grass grows  I am set to go

here is the problem as on the 1970 12 horse with the breaker-less ignition system I was able to start it 'but after adding gas to the tank and again trying to start it it wouldn't start as turning the key there was nothing the battery is charged so just in case it wasn't completely I jumped it off another tractor and still nothing ;I checked each wire on the key switch and they lite up with the tester; though there is one black wire on the switch and tracing it ;it seemed that it goes to the coil and with the test light it didn't lite up ;I sure hope that the coil isn't the issue as they are so hard to fine and when you are able to find one very expensive ;or could it be the key switch is the problem ;so any thoughts I sure would appreciate 

 

[ri702bill 8,327]

Google the fix on YT - pretty slick conversion to use late model GM ignition parts that are inexpensive and readily available....

Bill

Edited March 5, 2023 by ri702bill

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,046]

Do not allow any battery voltage into that ignition wire. That will burn up the windings in the coil. The ignition is self powered and when the ignition wire is grounded it shuts the ignition off. Not grounded it should run.

[953 nut 55,280]

6 hours ago, upstate yank said:

one black wire on the switch and tracing it ;it seemed that it goes to the coil and with the test light it didn't lite up

As Garry said that is a good thing.

6 hours ago, upstate yank said:

but after adding gas to the tank and again trying to start it it wouldn't start as turning the key there was nothing

Please define nothing. do you mean it will turn over but not start?  Do you mean there isn't even a click when the key is turned? We can help you if we know what is and is not happening.

Have you removed the spark plug and confirmed the issue is ignition related?

A general rule of thumb is that when a problem develops you should check the last thing you did first. The tractor has been setting for a while and you added fuel to the tank, is fuel flowing from the tank?

[Ed Kennell 38,196]

Is the PTO disengaged?

[upstate yank 219]

8 hours ago, 953 nut said:

As Garry said that is a good thing.

Please define nothing. do you mean it will turn over but not start?  Do you mean there isn't even a click when the key is turned? We can help you if we know what is and is not happening.

Have you removed the spark plug and confirmed the issue is ignition related?

A general rule of thumb is that when a problem develops you should check the last thing you did first. The tractor has been setting for a while and you added fuel to the tank, is fuel flowing from the tank?

thanks for the reply back and sorry that I confused a few here 

no there is no click or anything; it is just odd that I did start before I added the gas but after that was done turning the key it didn't do any thing it is odd that it could be the plug and no I did not check that the gas well again I didn't check either but I might be wrong here but those to items really have nothing to do with it not starting as again not there is not even a click ;I will check the plug and the gas flow ;but even with I prime the carb still nothing with the key switch as again not a click  I hope this helps ;thanks again 

[Ed Kennell 38,196]

8 hours ago, Ed Kennell said:

Is the PTO disengaged?

 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,046]

 

[953 nut 55,280]

3 hours ago, upstate yank said:

I might be wrong here but those to items really have nothing to do with it not starting

They  have nothing to do with the engine not responding by turning over, they have everything to do with it not starting.

Here are the steps to follow to find what part is causing the problem.

 

Why won’t my starter turn over from the key switch?

Lets take a logical step by step inspection of your starter problem.

Is your PTO in the ON position, a wheel horse will not start with the PTO on.

Have you had the battery load tested at an auto parts store?

Have you cleaned and tightened all electrical connections including grounds?

Are all fuses good and fuse holders cleaned?

If these have all been done, we can check components of the starting system as follows; don’t skip a step or you may miss the problem.

Be sure the transmission is in neutral and the parking brake is set.

Take a pair of automotive jumper cables and connect the black cable to your battery  "-" and a good clean spot on the engine. Now connect the other cable to the large post on the starter and touch the other end to the battery "+" terminal, does the starter turn over? If the starter turns over the battery and starter are good. If it didn't turn over try the same steps with the battery in your car/truck, if that cures the problem then the "good" battery wasn't so good.

Presuming the starter turned over move the jumper wire from the starter post to the other end of the wire going to the starter which is one of the large posts on the solenoid. If the starter turns over when the battery is touched by the jumper as before then that cable is good, if not you have found your problem.

Presuming the starter turned over move that jumper to the other terminal of the solenoid, connect the other end to the battery and use a small piece of wire to temporarily connect the battery "+" terminal to the small terminal on the solenoid, this should cause the solenoid to close and the starter to turn over. If not, the solenoid is probably the problem.

If this was successful remove the large jumper cable and use the small jumper wire to the small terminal of the solenoid, the solenoid should close and the starter turn over. If not the cable to the battery is the problem.

Presuming all of these have been successful remove the black jumper wire and repeat the small jumper to small terminal, if the starter turns over the ground is good.

If all of these components test good then remove your ignition switch, be sure the transmission is in neutral, parking brake on, clutch depressed and PTO off. Use a small jumper to connect the terminals that were connected to the “B” and “S” terminals of the ignition switch. If the starter turns over then the PTO switch and other safety switches are operating properly and your ignition switch may be bad.

[upstate yank 219]

7 hours ago, Ed Kennell said:

 

yes as it has an electric clutch

[upstate yank 219]

On 3/5/2023 at 6:41 PM, 953 nut said:

They  have nothing to do with the engine not responding by turning over, they have everything to do with it not starting.

Here are the steps to follow to find what part is causing the problem.

 

Why won’t my starter turn over from the key switch?

Lets take a logical step by step inspection of your starter problem.

Is your PTO in the ON position, a wheel horse will not start with the PTO on.

Have you had the battery load tested at an auto parts store?

Have you cleaned and tightened all electrical connections including grounds?

Are all fuses good and fuse holders cleaned?

If these have all been done, we can check components of the starting system as follows; don’t skip a step or you may miss the problem.

Be sure the transmission is in neutral and the parking brake is set.

Take a pair of automotive jumper cables and connect the black cable to your battery  "-" and a good clean spot on the engine. Now connect the other cable to the large post on the starter and touch the other end to the battery "+" terminal, does the starter turn over? If the starter turns over the battery and starter are good. If it didn't turn over try the same steps with the battery in your car/truck, if that cures the problem then the "good" battery wasn't so good.

Presuming the starter turned over move the jumper wire from the starter post to the other end of the wire going to the starter which is one of the large posts on the solenoid. If the starter turns over when the battery is touched by the jumper as before then that cable is good, if not you have found your problem.

Presuming the starter turned over move that jumper to the other terminal of the solenoid, connect the other end to the battery and use a small piece of wire to temporarily connect the battery "+" terminal to the small terminal on the solenoid, this should cause the solenoid to close and the starter to turn over. If not, the solenoid is probably the problem.

If this was successful remove the large jumper cable and use the small jumper wire to the small terminal of the solenoid, the solenoid should close and the starter turn over. If not the cable to the battery is the problem.

Presuming all of these have been successful remove the black jumper wire and repeat the small jumper to small terminal, if the starter turns over the ground is good.

If all of these components test good then remove your ignition switch, be sure the transmission is in neutral, parking brake on, clutch depressed and PTO off. Use a small jumper to connect the terminals that were connected to the “B” and “S” terminals of the ignition switch. If the starter turns over then the PTO switch and other safety switches are operating properly and your ignition switch may be bad.

thanks for the advise as I really appreciate it but to day I think that I found my problem as I  removed the starter and bench tested it ' it did not engage so off to the repair shop and see if he can repair it or buy another one 'I should ad as well that this 12 horse has the electric clutch  I will let you know what becomes of the repair  again thank you

[upstate yank 219]

to everyone that was so kind to reply on my post I really do appreciate it as your comments and thoughts were very help full ;but today I think I found the issue as it won't start or even turn over ;as I removed the starter and bench tested it ;the gear or the shaft did not turn as most are suppose to do so I am sure that it is locked up 'so off to the repair shop to see if it can be fixed if not well a different starter ;it happens as these old horses get old ;and to the ones that suggested to make sure the PTO is not engaged it has the electric clutch and the switch was turned off but thanks anyways ' 

[Retired Wrencher 5,459]

@ upstate yank. Things do wear out in time. Just thankful parts are plentiful. Hope all goes well.

[953 nut 55,280]

Glad you found the problem. A new starter Bendix and some new bearings should las another 53 years.

[upstate yank 219]

to the guys that again replied to my post as to the starter issue; it is confirmed that the start locked up as the brushes were no good and a few other items 'one has to think that this old horse has been around for years and at times things do wear out '

today I received a call that did verify the issue with the starter from the company that the starter is no good and really he is a straight shooter as I have dealt  with him many times ;'according to him he is not sure if he can get the parts as it is so old and many suppliers don't stock these items any more as with most dealers do not either plus the cost if he can get them ;so it might be best to buy a new starter rather than take the change of not being able to locate the items to rebuilt it so for about a 100 dollars he can get one ;years ago I had issues with a starter for my 10 horse Tecumseh and again the parts were not available so a new one bought and since  then I have not any issues with the starter as the old girl fires  up every time ;heck even the wheel horse parts dealer here can not get parts any longer as so many are not available any more 'so again I want to thank everyone for there help 

[Achto 27,594]

Parts vs new starter can be a rough call. Example : A new starter drive for my M18 from Kohler is around $130. A complete aftermarket starter motor with the drive already on it can be had for around $60. I like to stay OEM but when I can buy 2 complete starters for less than the part to fix my original starter. It makes it hard to justify fixing the old starter.

[Pullstart 62,905]

Glad to know you are making good progress @upstate yank!  It may be a good idea to continue on a thread, instead of a new one each time.  It will help with your own records of the journey, and if anyone else needs guidance in the future they’ll be able to see the whole story unfold.  

[ri702bill 8,327]

1 hour ago, Achto said:

but when I can buy 2 complete starters for less than the part to fix my original starter.

Agreed, but do read the product reviews first.....

[ri702bill 8,327]

3 minutes ago, Pullstart said:

they’ll be able to see the whole story unfold.

Or, unravel.... Work towards the former.

[Pullstart 62,905]

4 minutes ago, ri702bill said:

Agreed, but do read the product reviews first.....

And read the product details instead of the pictures  @WHX??…. Uncle Jim recently got a screamin’ deal on some ag tires on eBay but the pictures and descriptions were totally different from each other!  He still won, but it was like a lottery waiting for the package to come.  We were taking bets on tread design, and whether they were going to be for a GT or a walk behind snow blower!

[WHX?? 48,823]

38 minutes ago, Pullstart said:

And read the product details instead of the pictures  @WHX??…. Uncle Jim recently got a screamin’ deal on some ag tires on eBay but the pictures and descriptions were totally different from each other!  He still won, but it was like a lottery waiting for the package to come.  We were taking bets on tread design, and whether they were going to be for a GT or a walk behind snow blower!

Screamin deal is right. 

Shopping for tires for Aunt B and I run across a pair of Dees in 23x8.50- 12s for 57 clams shipped from a reputable seller. 

I couldn't believe the price and show the ad to Dan to make sure I am reading the writeup right. He says yep and I pull the trigger.

Then I share the ad with Kev. He eagle eyes the pic and notices it says 16" size on it. 

Oh oh ... now what are we gonna get.

I was gonna pull the trigger on some more and pass the deal forward but decided to wait until they were on the porch for inspection. 

 

Right size but totally different tread pattern than in the listing.

Go back to order more and now listed at 189 bucks a set shipped. 

Crap oh well must have been a goof up when seller first listed. Wonder if one of the seller's employees got a butt reaming. 🤔 

Edited March 9, 2023 by WHX??

[upstate yank 219]

16 hours ago, Achto said:

Parts vs new starter can be a rough call. Example : A new starter drive for my M18 from Kohler is around $130. A complete aftermarket starter motor with the drive already on it can be had for around $60. I like to stay OEM but when I can buy 2 complete starters for less than the part to fix my original starter. It makes it hard to justify fixing the old starter.

now that is very true as the cost that will be repairing an old one ;again some of the parts needed are no longer available so I figure buying a new one is well worth the cost and no more issues plus give the old girl  more years to run ;thanks for your thoughts 

[upstate yank 219]

15 hours ago, Pullstart said:

Glad to know you are making good progress @upstate yank!  It may be a good idea to continue on a thread, instead of a new one each time.  It will help with your own records of the journey, and if anyone else needs guidance in the future they’ll be able to see the whole story unfold.  

sorry as old age kicks in and forgot that I could do it this way rather than the use an older thread ;we live and learn  plus that is why they put erasers on pencils for brain farts 

[upstate yank 219]

15 hours ago, Pullstart said:

And read the product details instead of the pictures  @WHX??…. Uncle Jim recently got a screamin’ deal on some ag tires on eBay but the pictures and descriptions were totally different from each other!  He still won, but it was like a lottery waiting for the package to come.  We were taking bets on tread design, and whether they were going to be for a GT or a walk behind snow blower!

 

15 hours ago, ri702bill said:

Agreed, but do read the product reviews first.....

the starter that I am buying is being bought through a dealer so things should work out as far as a replace

ment 

[upstate yank 219]

UP DATE' well guys the new starter arrive and has been installed in the old 1970 ;first turn of the key it fired right up so for 113 plus change it was well worth it '

again thanks to the ones that replied with there thoughts as I sure did appreciate it