KT 17 -- asking Series 1 and Series 2 info ??

[Brockport Bill 1,664]

I have two C175s, both hydros -- acquired 2 yrs ago -- still learning about them.......using both, and doing various rehabs, repairs, upgrades, etc plus using for different tasks. I am aware of the basic mechanical design difference of the S1 vs S2 -- re: the crank and the S1 oil circulation deficiency and the Kohler/WH decision to design the S2 engine solving the S1 "flaw". I have what appears to be a 1983 model C175 with # 01-17ke03, #26795 with twin # KT17s-24223 # 12170338 that is Series 1 and BLACK in color ......... I also apparently have a 1984, C175, model #11-17ke01, #3299, but with no engine model or spec # decals, but is a Series 2 engine ( see photo ) and its GRAY in color.

 

I am trying to understand some of the production and replacement process WH used for both the two C175s I have now.... plus, I am considering additional C175s in the future with the KT 17 engines?? What model years was the Series 1 solely installed as their original from the factory engine? What years was the Series 2 solely installed and sold as original from the factory engines? What years did WH dealers start replacing defective Series 1 engines with Series 2 engines? It seems strange to me that WH would be installing new Series 1 engines as late as 1983 tractors like mine if they knew the Series 1 from 1980,81,82,83 was a defective problem design? When did WH begin to exclusively only install Series 2 engines in their new C175 WH tractors. One confusion is if ALL 1984 models directly from factory were Series 2 .... OR ...... were Series 2 only REPLACEMENT engines when Series 1 failed and dealers did replacement? thanks for any insights -- Bill

[Achto 27,597]

3 hours ago, Brockport Bill said:

Series 2 engine ( see photo ) and its GRAY in color.

 

As a general rule, when you find a gray engine it was a replacement/service engine. This also holds true with the K model engines. Most dealers did not bother repainting replacement engines.

 

The full pressurized Series II KT17 spec# is 24300 and higher.

[Brockport Bill 1,664]

4 hours ago, Achto said:

 

As a general rule, when you find a gray engine it was a replacement/service engine. This also holds true with the K model engines. Most dealers did not bother repainting replacement engines.

 

The full pressurized Series II KT17 spec# is 24300 and higher.

thanks !!!!!!! So then what is the difference and significance between the Series 2 engine spec with an "S" in the number, and an engine spec with "no "S" in the number ? The R.Sq "manuals" section states there is a 1984 spec of KT17S-24223, as well as KT17-24223 with no "S" ?

Additionally, if as you indicate the Series 2, KT 17 spec is "24300 and higher", why does the manuals section state a suffix # of 24223 which is a lower number for Series 2 ? These are the parts of the issue that confuse me I am trying to understand???? Thanks again!

[Brockport Bill 1,664]

5 hours ago, Achto said:

 

As a general rule, when you find a gray engine it was a replacement/service engine. This also holds true with the K model engines. Most dealers did not bother repainting replacement engines.

 

The full pressurized Series II KT17 spec# is 24300 and higher.

when you indicate a "gray" engine was a "replacement service engine", Does that mean the tractor was factory built with a Series 1, then later the dealer replaced it with a Series 2 ? or do you mean the 1984 C175s simply were built from the factory with a Series 2 originally?

[kpinnc 12,073]

Edit: after reading through this thread a little more, I realize my post is of little use. But I spent time making it, and am too lazy to delete it and come up with something better...

 

I can't speak to the serial number ranges or years of production. I have a complete series I KT17 and a Mag 20 "short block" in a box. I was gonna rebuild the Mag eventually, and use what I can from the KT externally. It's a shame really, because the KT is a great runner. But it has blowby that pushes oil into the breather.

 

Biggest difference as I understood was the lube type. Many of the internals can be swapped- including up to the Magnum line. The cranks obviously can't be swapped, but the jugs, pistons, rods, etc are the same for a given size.

 

Found a diagram that was helpful in explaining the lube differences too.

 

 

Edited March 6, 2023 by kpinnc

[Achto 27,597]

5 hours ago, Brockport Bill said:

when you indicate a "gray" engine was a "replacement service engine", Does that mean the tractor was factory built with a Series 1, then later the dealer replaced it with a Series 2 ?

 

This is correct. Dealer replacement engines were commonly painted gray. The tractor may have been built with a series I or series II. Either way a lot of dealers swapped out the series I for a series II when there was a need for replacement.

 

We all know that the series I had it's down falls. Kohler fixed the issues with the series II. Unfortunately the series I gave them a bad reputation, which is why I think that Onan's become popular for a while. 

Edited March 6, 2023 by Achto

[pfrederi 17,741]

I picked up a C-175 that by model/yr would have had a series 1 engine.  However it has a gray series 2 engine.  The spec number of the gray engine shows it was ordered by WH.  I would assume that after the failures of the series 1 began WH needed to do something to keep dealers/customers happy. Now remember not just any service engine could be used.  The vast majority of KT17 Series 1 or Series 2 do NOT have a thrust bearing on the PTO end of the crank.  That is why WH had to have a special run made..  The parts manual for the replacement engine spec'd to WH shows the thrust bearing.

 

As for the S you should look at the KT 17 Service manual it explains a lot of things like production dates.

 

[Brockport Bill 1,664]

TERRIFIC INFO -- thanks to all -- keep it coming -- love the historacal mystery behind this stuff...... plus it has great value for maintenance info, reliablity etc -- also, because I hope to locate another C175 with a KT then the more insight the better - thanks again -- P.s. Fortunately, the 1983 Series 1 ithat I have runs fine thus far with no issues - the meter shows low hours so maybe it was treated and maintained well ?????????? Let's hope?????????

[oliver2-44 9,756]

37 minutes ago, Brockport Bill said:

- P.s. Fortunately, the 1983 Series 1 ithat I have runs fine thus far with no issues - the meter shows low hours so maybe it was treated and maintained well ?????????? Let's hope?????????

As has been said here before The Series I is a good engine as long as it is used on fairly level ground and you keep the oil full or even slightly over full

[Brockport Bill 1,664]

2 hours ago, oliver2-44 said:

As has been said here before The Series I is a good engine as long as it is used on fairly level ground and you keep the oil full or even slightly over full

read that about level ground and proper oil level -- good tips

[Brockport Bill 1,664]

7 hours ago, Achto said:

 

This is correct. Dealer replacement engines were commonly painted gray. The tractor may have been built with a series I or series II. Either way a lot of dealers swapped out the series I for a series II when there was a need for replacement.

 

We all know that the series I had it's down falls. Kohler fixed the issues with the series II. Unfortunately the series I gave them a bad reputation, which is why I think that Onan's become popular for a while. 

do we know, or can we assume.....ALL Series 2 engines are GRAY -- or can some Series 2 be black? When I am shopping for another C175 it would be easier to just see photo in sales posting  - versus having to ask the owner, or having them inspect engine, or get model and serial number i.d.'s from them?

[Achto 27,597]

 

15 minutes ago, Brockport Bill said:

do we know, or can we assume

 

What I'm saying is that service engines are commonly gray. Gray paint usually means that the engine was changed by a dealership at one point. Example:  If I were to buy an 857 and it had a gray K181 in it, it would lead me to believe that the engine was changed at a dealer during some point in it's life. 

[Brockport Bill 1,664]

8 minutes ago, Achto said:

 

 

What I'm saying is that service engines are commonly gray. Gray paint usually means that the engine was changed by a dealership at one point. Example:  If I were to buy an 857 and it had a gray K181 in it, it would lead me to believe that the engine was changed at a dealer during some point in it's life. 

perhaps a silly basic question but --- i am not familiar with the term "service engine" ??? Does that term mean an engine provided by a service dept installed at a dealer...... rather than installed as original equipment at a factory?

[pfrederi 17,741]

WH spec'd Series 2 engines for the 417 model.  the are painted black.

[pfrederi 17,741]

Service engine is a term Kohler uses you look up the spec number it will say who ordered it (JD, Toro, Cub cadet etc) or just list it as basic or serivce...

[Brockport Bill 1,664]

1 minute ago, pfrederi said:

WH spec'd Series 2 engines for the 417 model.  the are painted black.

should i assume then the distinction is the Series 2 engines in 417 are factory installed? Therefore black???? Whereas the kt 17 that are referred to as service engines in C175s were replacement and therefore Gray? 

[pfrederi 17,741]

assumptions are dangerous...  you need to look at the spec number  not the paint color....

[Brockport Bill 1,664]

9 minutes ago, pfrederi said:

assumptions are dangerous...  you need to look at the spec number  not the paint color....

agreed - I am generally a "dont assume' kinda guy --- the challenge is for C175s I may see posted for sale the tractor often doesn't have a decal on engine -- ( as a matter of fact the gray Series 2 engine that came to me on the 1984 C175 had NO Tins ) Some that have tractor i.d. tag may have an engine someone swapped in -- i just had that happen a few days ago -- i was considering a C175 posted for sale and led to believe one thing about engine from owner - only to find out the tractor i.d. was misleading because the KT engine was swapped in -- therefore the engine master list of spec numbers associated with the tractor i.d. didnt reconcile with engine -- so as often happens communicating online with a seller can be challenging. I am grateful for all the insights here as i try to better understand the "system" application used 40 yrs ago? 

[Achto 27,597]

44 minutes ago, Brockport Bill said:

"service engine"

 

Service engine - The engine that was in the tractor was junk, we replaced it with a brand new engine. We ordered a new engine with the same specs from Kohler. The new engine came out of the box painted gray, we are a mechanics shop not a paint shop. Your new engine is still gray.

Edited March 6, 2023 by Achto

[Brockport Bill 1,664]

44 minutes ago, Achto said:

 

Service engine - The engine that was in the tractor was junk, we replaced it with a brand new engine. We ordered a new engine with the same specs from Kohler. The new engine came out of the box painted gray, we are a mechanics shop not a paint shop. Your new engine is still gray.

not sure what situation you are referring to  - - other than the the generic info i was asking about for me here in nys - i just happen to have two c175s i got 2 yrs ago - one a black Series 1 and the other a gray series 2  -- and i am trying to understand the origins -- not asking anyone to paint anything

[AHS 1,440]

I bought a 82 C175 series 1. I did change the spark plugs, and the oil. “Don’t let the oil run low” and “overfill it by just a couple ounces of oil” is what i have heard. So on went the long shute snowblower… And boy does it throw the snow!!! It has an low 730 hours on it..and it runs just like a Swiss watch!! I would not be afraid of either a series 1 or 2. The series 2 have a spec no 24300 and above. The series 1 has a spec no of 24299 and lower. I hope this helps you.

[pacer 3,173]

Just a FWIW comment ...... I was looking at a D160 and the seller (what a character that was) was going on and on about it having a 'brand new' engine in it (K341) and, indeed it was painted gray. I bought it really going more on the rest of the tractor than his ravings of 'new' engine. Get the thing in the shop and to ck out and see just what the engine was, I pulled the head --- well, surprise, surprise! it really was a 'new' engine. Measuring the cyl showed standard bore and little to no wear. YES!!

[Brockport Bill 1,664]

4 hours ago, pacer said:

Just a FWIW comment ...... I was looking at a D160 and the seller (what a character that was) was going on and on about it having a 'brand new' engine in it (K341) and, indeed it was painted gray. I bought it really going more on the rest of the tractor than his ravings of 'new' engine. Get the thing in the shop and to ck out and see just what the engine was, I pulled the head --- well, surprise, surprise! it really was a 'new' engine. Measuring the cyl showed standard bore and little to no wear. YES!!

last year, my grandson and I rescued a long abandoned C165 ( K341 engine ) from a back yard and applying some modest $ and repair effort ( plus help of a friend ) got it running and working -- he has it now -- that single cyl Kohler 341 is a nice engine !!! But different than your 341, its black not gray

[RED-Z06 2,221]

On 3/6/2023 at 5:07 AM, Achto said:

 

This is correct. Dealer replacement engines were commonly painted gray. The tractor may have been built with a series I or series II. Either way a lot of dealers swapped out the series I for a series II when there was a need for replacement.

 

We all know that the series I had it's down falls. Kohler fixed the issues with the series II. Unfortunately the series I gave them a bad reputation, which is why I think that Onan's become popular for a while. 

The Deere 317 was Deeres big foray into somewhat affordable homeowner tractors with Hydros and a big Twin...they used the KT17 s1 also and that engine hurt that company so badly, it was a giant red mark for Wheel Horse, Deere, Simplicity...the KT was touted as the future and...yikes, many blew up first season. 

[Brockport Bill 1,664]

15 minutes ago, RED-Z06 said:

The Deere 317 was Deeres big foray into somewhat affordable homeowner tractors with Hydros and a big Twin...they used the KT17 s1 also and that engine hurt that company so badly, it was a giant red mark for Wheel Horse, Deere, Simplicity...the KT was touted as the future and...yikes, many blew up first season. 

we got our two C175s 2 yrs ago -- the 1983 is S1 ( black ) ........the other is 1984 ( gray ) is S2  - the S1 runs fine but low hours -- hopefully it has a good life with us and was cared for by prior owners but we dont know its origin so its guessing game -- we have one small up and down yard slope for mowing -- so up it and down it in 10-15 seconds and we have one small side slope -- maybe 20-30 seconds - so hopefully that's not enough to damage engine -- we will keep oil changed and full !!!!!!!!! i would love to know the actual percentage of the S1s that were built that went bad and had to be replaced -- and if the damage was mostly all abuse, poor care, and lots of slopes??? Was it 5 percent, 10, 50 percent???  If they had good care and no slopes/hills, did they have a good longevity? I've seen many comments of S1 owners who have had no problems????? For us i guess only time will tell ????