C 101

[ANTPER 207]

Hi Folks 

working on my first C101. Spins over but no fuel coming out of the pump. I ran new fuel 

Line  and added an in line filter for which it had none installed. I’m thinking there is a filtering going on in the shut off valve screen? But anyways I ordered a pump. The other strange thing that’s leads me to believe I have more issues is that it wouldn’t even pop or sputter while spraying starting fluid in it.

Guess next thing to check is compression. Kohler K241AS 10HP

 

[Blasterdad 2,692]

1 hour ago, Your Uncle Tony said:

wouldn’t even pop or sputter while spraying starting fluid in it.

 

Probably a good thing, never use starting fluid, it can do extreme damage, use a squirt bottle with gas in it. 

Try pressurising the tank to get the gas to the pump, I put a rag around my air chuck & give it a little blast, pushes fuel through the lines & up through the pump.

 

 

[RED-Z06 2,221]

If its been sitting, the check valves in the pump are probably stuck, new pump should fix that.  But it should hit on fuel in the throat, check spark 

[kpinnc 12,069]

The fuel tank under the seat may have the pre-filter screen on the shut off valve. There is a good chance that it has corroded and closed off completely. Run a fuel line to a seperate tank or just a cup of fuel and see if the pump is working.

 

No spark- the number one issue I've seen is the plug wire from the coil going bad. If you have 12v on the + side of the coil with the key on, you should be able to trace it down from there. 

[953 nut 55,281]

When the new fuel line was installed did fuel come from the tank through the line if the engine end is unhooked and lowered into a container?

If fuel is not present check to be sure the valve on the tank is open.

When the spark plug is removed, high tension lead connected and placed on the engine head is there any spark when the engine is turned over?

If there is no spark check for voltage to the "+" side of the ignition coil with the key on. If there is no voltage place a temporary jumper wire from the battery "+" to the coil "+" and see if there is spark when the engine is turned over.

If there is still no spark remove the jumper wire and check the ignition points to see if they are clean, you can clean them by running a dollar bill between the contacts.

[Pullstart 62,905]

I agree with the above comments, but I have been known to pull the air cleaner off the carb, and cover it with my palm while cranking over.  The vacuum from the piston will super suck the fuel through the system, if it is at all possible.  

[ANTPER 207]

Ok.. I did little more digging that I should of done after it didnt start with starter fluid. Did compression test and zero. cranked it over with  S. plug out and piston is not moving. So that would explain while the fuel pump is not pumping! I should have known by how easy engine was cranking over. I added approximately a qrt of oil before I even cranked it the first time. Previous owner probably ran engine dry most likely.There is spark while cranking

Edited February 26, 2023 by ANTPER

[OutdoorEnvy 1,522]

That’s the same place I was in with my C-100.  Crankshaft had exploded by being run low of oil. 
 

next step for me would be pull the head off and push the piston down and inspect the cylinder walls for damage above the ring line.  Then you’ll have an idea of what you’re really in for and go from there…

[ANTPER 207]

8 minutes ago, OutdoorEnvy said:

That’s the same place I was in with my C-100.  Crankshaft had exploded by being run low of oil. 
 

next step for me would be pull the head off and push the piston down and inspect the cylinder walls for damage above the ring line.  Then you’ll have an idea of what you’re really in for and go from there…

I'm either gonna sell as is or find a decent K241 from one of our local members and do an RnR. Not sure I wanna get deep into a rebuild. Otherwise the unit is a solid work horse still all together

Edited February 26, 2023 by ANTPER

[RED-Z06 2,221]

1 hour ago, ANTPER said:

Ok.. I did little more digging that I should of done after it didnt start with starter fluid. Did compression test and zero. cranked it over with  S. plug out and piston is not moving. So that would explain while the fuel pump is not pumping! I should have known by how easy engine was cranking over. I added approximately a qrt of oil before I even cranked it the first time. Previous owner probably ran engine dry most likely.There is spark while cranking

These older engines do use a bit of oil as times goes on...my K241 is healthy and it uses about 3oz every 5hrs, no leaks and the plug comes out clean, but if someone used it for 40hrs in a season thats 24oz down and full it only holds 64oz full.  I think they get neglected more because you need a wrench to back off the dipstick.

[ineedanother 1,369]

4 hours ago, ANTPER said:

Ok.. I did little more digging that I should of done after it didnt start with starter fluid. Did compression test and zero. cranked it over with  S. plug out and piston is not moving. So that would explain while the fuel pump is not pumping! I should have known by how easy engine was cranking over. I added approximately a qrt of oil before I even cranked it the first time. Previous owner probably ran engine dry most likely.There is spark while cranking

Not sure what your level of ambition is but I wouldn't resign myself to calling it scrap until it's been opened up. If the rod cap is sitting in your oil pan you might be looking at a fairly inexpensive fix. There is at least another non-catastrophic explanation as well so don't be so discouraged just yet.

[ANTPER 207]

3 hours ago, RED-Z06 said:

These older engines do use a bit of oil as times goes on...my K241 is healthy and it uses about 3oz every 5hrs, no leaks and the plug comes out clean, but if someone used it for 40hrs in a season thats 24oz down and full it only holds 64oz full.  I think they get neglected more because you need a wrench to back off the dipstick.

Yes I believe the extra labor of having to unscrew dipstick with a wrench sealed the deal

[ANTPER 207]

44 minutes ago, ineedanother said:

Not sure what your level of ambition is but I wouldn't resign myself to calling it scrap until it's been opened up. If the rod cap is sitting in your oil pan you might be looking at a fairly inexpensive fix. There is at least another non-catastrophic explanation as well so don't be so discouraged just yet.

 Yea I will probably let the dust settle on this before I decide. Maybe I'll work on some other parts of the tractor in meantime. It has a brand new fuel line and filter why give up on it now lol. Now its safe to say I have to remove the engine from the chassis for this adventure?

[ineedanother 1,369]

3 minutes ago, ANTPER said:

 Yea I will probably let the dust settle on this before I decide. Maybe I'll work on some other parts of the tractor in meantime. It has a brand new fuel line and filter why give up on it now lol. Now its safe to say I have to remove the engine from the chassis for this adventure?

Well, I'm interested to see what you find. The fuel pump is driven by the cam shaft and the piston is driven by the crank shaft. I would start by pulling the head and seeing what the piston and valves do when you crank it over by hand.  

[ANTPER 207]

11 minutes ago, ineedanother said:

Well, I'm interested to see what you find. The fuel pump is driven by the cam shaft and the piston is driven by the crank shaft. I would start by pulling the head and seeing what the piston and valves do when you crank it over by hand.  

Right now I can visually see that the piston is not moving when engine is spinning very freely. This I observed just by pulling S. plug. so hearing the cam drives the fuel pump I should still be getting fuel up to the carb even with a broken connect rod but I'm not. I may just pressurize the fuel tank as a member had mentioned to get it up there

Edited February 27, 2023 by ANTPER

[ineedanother 1,369]

yeah, I guess my point is that it sounds like you have catastrophic issues but not necessarily terminal until you get eyes on it. 

[ANTPER 207]

36 minutes ago, ineedanother said:

yeah, I guess my point is that it sounds like you have catastrophic issues but not necessarily terminal until you get eyes on it. 

Ok since you are interested I may take this challenge on. I was an Auto tech before I ventured into a business, just haven't mess with tractor engines before as far as major tear down. So I'll start with the head and report back. 

Edited February 27, 2023 by ANTPER

[ineedanother 1,369]

Yes, it certainly would, and I don't want to urge you down an unrealistic or cost-prohibitive or ill-advised path. Pull the head and turn it by hand. $0. See what's going on on the top end before you look at the bottom side which is more labor-intensive. The fuel pump may have nothing to do with other issues.

[ineedanother 1,369]

4 minutes ago, ineedanother said:

Yes, it certainly would, 

this is actually not true, but in practice, yes.

[Pullstart 62,905]

I’ve got a K241 engine with a broken rod, and another  with a terribly worn cylinder.  I have thought of swapping the good crank and rod into the busted engine some day, just to see what happens.  It could last 10 minutes, or 30 years!

[ANTPER 207]

On 2/26/2023 at 9:36 PM, ineedanother said:

Yes, it certainly would, and I don't want to urge you down an unrealistic or cost-prohibitive or ill-advised path. Pull the head and turn it by hand. $0. See what's going on on the top end before you look at the bottom side which is more labor-intensive. The fuel pump may have nothing to do with other issues.

Ok I pulled head off and apparently the last owner did also as the head bolts hand tight. He chickened out and sold it as is. He left out this little detail. The valves all move as they should which puzzles me on why no fuel to carb. Now I tap the piston down a bit and does move. Cyl walls look great. Now I spun the engine by hand with piston lower and crank is making contact with piston and not spinning over any longer. Ok I was able to blow the piston up out of the cyl with compressed air and removed piston. Looks as the previous owner removed the piston as I did and removed the broken off part of connecting rod so engine would spin over and put piston and head back on and sell as just a no simple no start instead of seized. The crank journal is toast. Just giving you the play by play

Edited March 3, 2023 by ANTPER

[ineedanother 1,369]

Gotcha. You mentioned earlier that picking up a used K241 might be an option. Depending on what you have left in hand a short block might be all you need. That would certainly be the easier route to take now given what you've found.

[OutdoorEnvy 1,522]

Pretty crappy for seller to have done that and not been up front about what you were getting into.  But now you know and can determine how you want to go about getting the tractor running again.  If the cylinder walls look good though a rebuild kit isn't as tough a job as it seems.  The single cylinder kohlers are about as easy as it gets. 

 

Did the piston have a number on the top anywhere?  Might need to clear off carbon to tell.  This would indicate an over bore size piston if you see one.  If not it would be standard. 

[ANTPER 207]

4 hours ago, ineedanother said:

Gotcha. You mentioned earlier that picking up a used K241 might be an option. Depending on what you have left in hand a short block might be all you need. That would certainly be the easier route to take now given what you've found.

By short block you mean just the engine body with a good piston and crank in it or entire engine assembly? I do know a member that has a complete C121 for 250 that I can get my hands on. Just drop it in and go.

Is my current blown k241 something I can sell or scrap metal this point?

[ANTPER 207]

4 hours ago, OutdoorEnvy said:

Pretty crappy for seller to have done that and not been up front about what you were getting into.  But now you know and can determine how you want to go about getting the tractor running again.  If the cylinder walls look good though a rebuild kit isn't as tough a job as it seems.  The single cylinder kohlers are about as easy as it gets. 

 

Did the piston have a number on the top anywhere?  Might need to clear off carbon to tell.  This would indicate an over bore size piston if you see one.  If not it would be standard. 

And go to all the effort and put back together broken. I may jump on the mint C121 I mentioned above from a Red member