Trans Swap

[Matt Foss 2]

All, just wondering if an 8 speed from a raider will bolt into a 654?  My 654 has a 4 speed and gears 2/3 are popping out.  I have found an 8 speed from a raider that I would like to buy but I don't know if it will work with mine.  Any suggestions would be helpful.  

[953 nut 56,742]

The eight speed and three speed have a few differences in the linkage to the brakes and would not be a direct bolt up but it has been done by several people. Be sure the transmission you are putting on your tractor is in good condition before you make the purchase.

You could replace the 3523 gear in your transmission and replace the seals and bearings as needed for a couple hundred and be confident that the transmission you have is ready for the next half century.   https://wheelhorsepartsandmore.com/product/3523-3rd-gear/

 

[Pullstart 63,529]

Raider with a 6 or 8 speed?  The difference is the brake set mainly, but a 6 speed would fit better than an 8.  I’ve stuck an 8 in my 502, and it is just perfect shy of a parking brake still.  
 

 

[Achto 28,190]

 

Not a direct replacement but can be done with a few alterations.

[ri702bill 8,738]

10 hours ago, Pullstart said:

The difference is the brake set mainly, but a 6 speed would fit better than an 8.  I’ve stuck an 8 in my 502, and it is just perfect shy of a parking brake still.

 

Yup, I agree with Kevin - there is less work required to install the 6 speed, and you will probably need to ditch the parking brake (but 1st gear in Lo range is almost as good !)

 

I did an 8 speed swap on my 854, using a low hour trans from a C81.

The 4 bolt pattern to attach the trans to the "F" plate is the same.

The input shaft diameter is not - 4 speed is 3/4" (the 6 speed is also) the 8 speed is 5/8".

Had to buy a brake rod from a Raider (!!) to get the proper pull on the brake band. (may not need this on a 6 speed) No parking brake mechanism.

Had to change the input shaft pulley - the C81 style is way too large in diameter to fit under the 854 belt guard. Bought one close to the 4 speed diameter.

That being said, the original 70" long belt was now too long - went with a 69" belt instead.

You need to holesaw 2 holes in your sheetmetal - one in the hoodstand for the Hi-Lo lever (used as-is), and one hole on the bottom of the toolbox under the seat for the dipstick tube.

Regular shift lever - I went with the 4 speed shifter (but later cut the top back about 1" for better knee clearance) The C series shifter is longer and has an extra bend in it.

Dipstick tube - I needed to remove about 3-1/2" from both - the C81 had a flip-up seat, the 854 is fixed. (easiest way I found to get the "Full" mark right was to fill the installed trans with the original parts  - verify it is full, cut the parts and reinstall. Remove the dipstick - the top of the oil is now you new full mark. Scribe or lightly file a line there.)

Worth the effort - absolutely.

 

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by ri702bill

[ri702bill 8,738]

@Handy Don also did one on a 854 - he used a 6 speed. I've driven it, nice tractor.

Bill

[peter lena 8,970]

@Matt Foss  on that trans swap, recently recovering a 3/ 12/ 8 , used 2 qts of hi mileage  ATF  FLUID  as my  flushing argent / clean up , had this in while getting after other issues . collective run time / miles . thats important . picture that lighter  oil flushing down collective debris in trans , regular driving around with out load strain , is fine.  the drain was really effective , refilled with lucas  ,CLIMBING OIL ADDITIVES , HEAVY DUTY , HIGH PERFORMANCE 80-90 TRANS + DIFF LUBE . much better ,quieter , easy shifting . also put a hose screw clamp on top of your new shift boot along with dielectric grease at the base of it for easy sliding , the clamp will stop boot travel  and exposure , have some time on this , just an idea , pete

[ri702bill 8,738]

I like the idea of the hose clamp. I do something slightly different. I cut a circle of rubber from an old inner tube with a 1/2" hole in the middle, remove the knob, slide the rubber halfway down, reinstall the knob. Time for the Lucas grease - a heavy layer of grease placed on the shifter ball in the trans, push the rubber down onto the grease, install the boot. An added layer of protection to keep water out....

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by ri702bill

[peter lena 8,970]

@ri702bill   thats what im talking about , go greasy , pete

[ri702bill 8,738]

4 hours ago, ri702bill said:

An added layer of protection to keep water out....

And the best part - nothing for the oh-so-critical "That ain't original" (No, it's better!!!) Hindsight Tinkle Team to get a rash about - 'cause they can't see it

[peter lena 8,970]

@ri702bill  like the  HINDSIGHT TINKLE TEAM shout out , like walking into a buzz saw , pete

[Matt Foss 2]

18 hours ago, 953 nut said:

The eight speed and three speed have a few differences in the linkage to the brakes and would not be a direct bolt up but it has been done by several people. Be sure the transmission you are putting on your tractor is in good condition before you make the purchase.

You could replace the 3523 gear in your transmission and replace the seals and bearings as needed for a couple hundred and be confident that the transmission you have is ready for the next half century.   https://wheelhorsepartsandmore.com/product/3523-3rd-gear/

 

I'm thinking that it will need new gears which I'm almost positive I won't be able to buy.  I have not torn into it.  It could just be the detent spring or something simple but I'm not sure.  I did flush the fluid as it appears water got into it at some point.  The fluid was rusty brown looking.  I cannot get the drain bolt out.  I had to pump the fluid out of the filler hole.  The 8-speed I was told is in good working condition.  the 654 does not have a parking brake so I can ditch that.  

[wallfish 17,193]

1 hour ago, ri702bill said:

And the best part - nothing for the oh-so-critical "That ain't original" (No, it's better!!!) Hindsight Tinkle Team to get a rash about - 'cause they can't see it

Well Bill. I know it's there now! You're on double duty secret probation until that is sorted out! And hurry up, I'm outta Calamine lotion! LoL

 

 

[Matt Foss 2]

So the transmission I am looking at is from a Raider 10.  It has 1, 2, 3, R w/ Hi and Lo.  Would this be considered an 8-speed or 6?

[wallfish 17,193]

Most likely a 6 speed

We don't know your background or capabilities concerning the swap so that's why people are giving a lot of detail.

If you have the tools to drill and cut metal then you probably have enough experience to swap in either one.

[ri702bill 8,738]

Your choice Matt - If you go with the 8 speed or not - welcome and do ask questions along the way....

[953 nut 56,742]

1 hour ago, Matt Foss said:

Would this be considered an 8-speed or 6?

That depends on the year it was built and if this is the one it left the factory with. Six speeds were in the 1968 Raider and from 1969 to 1972 they were the eight speed. One little advantage is that the Raider six and eight speed transaxles had limited slip differentials.

[Handy Don 13,085]

On 2/22/2023 at 5:57 PM, Matt Foss said:

So the transmission I am looking at is from a Raider 10.  It has 1, 2, 3, R w/ Hi and Lo.  Would this be considered an 8-speed or 6?

differentiators for transaxles having high/low shifter

- no dipstick hole on the top of the transaxle (blue arrow) ==> 6-speed (one late model 6-speed did have a dipstick hole)

- brake drum very close to rear axle (pink arrow) ==> 6-speed

- oil fill extension at lower left rear of transaxle

 

Personally, i like having the parking brake and it isn’t hard to have it once the brake linkage is in place using the 6-speed box. It is tricky if putting in the 8-speed.

This image shows the parking brake and the close clearance of the brake drum & rear axle housing for the 6-speed box mounted in my 854. The silver parking brake release spring is my own addition since the tractor came to me without one--I’m not sure where it was originally (and yes, one end of the spring is hooked into the brake/clutch spring).

 

Oil fill extension (parts 71 & 72)

Edited March 7, 2023 by Handy Don

[twisted metal 49]

So does an 8 speed have 4 forward gears or 6 ? 

[Pullstart 63,529]

35 minutes ago, twisted metal said:

So does an 8 speed have 4 forward gears or 6 ? 

3 gears, hi and lo… so 6 forward.  1 reverse, hi and lo, gaining the extra 2.  So, 6 and 8 speeds have the same gear sets, it was a marketing thing.

[Pullstart 63,529]

The 6 speed case will swap easier than an 8 speed case, but they will yield very similar results.  @Handy Don’s images above will help identify if what you are looking at is a 6 speed.

[JimSraj 471]

We’re all of the 6 speeds 1-1/8” axles?  I’m sure the T1267 s from 1967 were bc I have 2 of them ( 1 running and one for parts). 

[Handy Don 13,085]

A couple of useful documents...

 

This one seems to show that all 6-speeds are 1-⅛"

 

 

[953 nut 56,742]

5 hours ago, JimSraj said:

We’re all of the 6 speeds 1-1/8” axles?