Kohler command repower

[Tonytoro416 1,034]

Have the opportunity to buy a new in the box 23 hp vtwin Kohler command at a real good price.  Everything I have uses 1” shaft. The Kohler has either 1 1/8” or 1 7/16” shaft. I haven’t seen engine in person yet to measure the shaft.   How is this overcome to be able to use pto and drive like a stock tractor does?

[kpinnc 12,100]

Your safest option with that engine would be to find a pully with the same OD as a drive pulley and combine it with an electric PTO.

 

The Command series engines do not have ball bearing supported cranks, and likely will not play well with the axial loads applied by the Wheel Horse PTO design. 

[SylvanLakeWH 25,602]

Drive is easy - get a larger bore pulley. PTO... I'll wait to hear...

 

edit: kpinnc types fast!

Edited February 13, 2023 by SylvanLakeWH

[kpinnc 12,100]

2 hours ago, SylvanLakeWH said:

edit: kpinnc types fast!

 

Just wanted to head off the discussion about the "bearing adapter" that was used on some other engines.

 

It's not that it wouldn't have merit. Rather it has never been tested nor approved for use with that specific engine. Use at your own peril at best, and certainly not what I would use on a new engine.

 

I can also verify personally that Command V twins do NOT like loading very far out on the PTO shaft. Keep whatever clutch you use as close to the block as possible. I have a CV25 twin that threw a rod with less than 200 hours because the clutch was mounted upside down, so the side load was nearly 4 inches out from the block. Best guess is that the side load was enough to create misalignment of the crank. Over time the bushings wore oblong and allowed the rods to bind. 

[Tonytoro416 1,034]

This is exactly why I put this up to ask you guys.  I think I may pass on the engine then. thank you for the info I was not aware 

[Tonytoro416 1,034]

He also had some Honda twins new in the box but I missed out on those 

[davem1111 2,030]

1 hour ago, Tonytoro416 said:

He also had some Honda twins new in the box but I missed out on those 

 

You mean he sold them already?   Do you know how much they went for?

[Tonytoro416 1,034]

The Hondas I do not know what he got for them. 

[kpinnc 12,100]

5 hours ago, Tonytoro416 said:

This is exactly why I put this up to ask you guys.

 

I don't mean to discourage you. I do however believe that "current" engines are not designed to handle the axial loads of a WH, and almost none have ball bearings anymore. 

 

With some engines, it's not an issue. Onan P series are a good example. Magnum and KT Kohlers are another. 

 

The fact is almost no application out there has the axial load of these old tractors, and I doubt it's a consideration with engine manufacturers anymore either. If you use an electric PTO, it should be fine. 

Edited February 14, 2023 by kpinnc

[Tonytoro416 1,034]

The onan in my 416 runs fine just saw opportunity for repower in the future but I don’t want any failures 

[Horse Newbie 7,075]

37 minutes ago, Tonytoro416 said:

The onan in my 416 runs fine just saw opportunity for repower in the future but I don’t want any failures 

Smart move…

[kpinnc 12,100]

1 hour ago, Tonytoro416 said:

The onan in my 416 runs fine just saw opportunity for repower in the future but I don’t want any failures 

 

One thing I didn't consider: I have no idea (and it isn't my business) what the asking price for the engine is. If you can score well enough, maybe it's worth experimenting. 

 

I'm a big Vanguard horizontal V-twin fan, but I picked up a couple free engines to play with. Only the horizontal 14-23hp Vanguards have a ball bearing on the PTO side. If I had to pay full price for them, I likely wouldn't have tried them out.

[Tonytoro416 1,034]

I can buy the engine for 1200 bucks in the box 

[WHGuy413 2,706]

9 minutes ago, kpinnc said:

 

I'm a big Vanguard horizontal V-twin fan,

I am as well and have 2 tractors repowered with 18hp vanguards. They both have held up to years of service running mowers and blowers all operated off of a manual clutch. These both have more power than needed for every application I have used them for.

[Wild Bill 633 846]

The Kohler Command is designed with a bushing in the crankcase cover on the PTO end of the crankshaft. The cover could be bored out to install a R24 ball bearing to support the overhung load. This is what they do to pulling engines. See Lakota Racing's website.

Also, there are some Kohler Command spec. nos. that have an axial thrust bearing. I have an spreadsheet from Medart which I can sort. If you post the model and spec. no. and I can check for you. The cover could also be machined on the inside to accept a thrust washer and washers.

Edited February 14, 2023 by Wild Bill 633

[Tonytoro416 1,034]

That’s the engine I would like to have but this opportunity popped and thought I’d see what you guys thought and glad I did 

[Tonytoro416 1,034]

[Wild Bill 633 846]

ECH730-3008 is a Command Pro EFI fuel injected engine. Need to make sure you get the ECU. This engine does not have a thrust bearing.

[kpinnc 12,100]

59 minutes ago, Wild Bill 633 said:

Also, there are some Kohler Command spec. nos. that have an axial thrust bearing. I have an spreadsheet from Medart which I can sort. If you post the model and spec. no. and I can check for you. The cover could also be machined on the inside to accept a thrust washer and washers.

 

Now that definitely changes my thoughts. If you can get one of those covers worked with a bearing installed, that changes things completely. Changing the cover on a new engine is super simple. 

 

If a bearing can be added and lubricated, you would be fine to go that route. 

Edited February 14, 2023 by kpinnc

[Wild Bill 633 846]

8 hours ago, kpinnc said:

If a bearing can be added and lubricated, you would be fine to go that route. 

You could use a sealed bearing and remove the seals.

[kpinnc 12,100]

5 hours ago, Wild Bill 633 said:

You could use a sealed bearing and remove the seals.

 

Looks like the oil pump is right beside the bearing. Should be possible? Just remove the inner seal?

Edited February 14, 2023 by kpinnc

[Wild Bill 633 846]

@kpinnc There is enough depth in the outer bore to leave the OEM bushing in the cover and bore a 2.625" hole to a depth of 0.875" which will allow the R24 bearing with a width of 0.5625" and the CR 15194 oil seal with a width of 0.3125 to fit.

For the thrust bearing, I think you would be able to machine down the inside boss of the cover the same thickness of the thrust bearing and thrust washer and use crankshaft shims to adjust end play only if needed. Use the CH740-3008 IPL for reference. The Kohler P/Ns are 24 030 08-S for the thrust bearing and 52 114 04-S for the thrust washer.

[Tonytoro416 1,034]

I passed on the engine.  For another 500 bucks I can get a 23hp vanguard twin and everything needed to put in my 416.  Wiring harness everything