Curious as to why

[formariz 11,987]

Had this tractor stopped for years with a K301. Got it going again which was extremely easy. Noticed however that it wasn’t quite sounding right so I decided to replace coil condenser and points since I keep extras anyway. After setting timing using a multimeter with the sound continuity feature and then with a feeler gage testing gap for the heck of it, realized that gap is only .003 rather than the normal .020. 
Tractor now runs perfectly. What causes gap to be so drastically different on this engine?

[wallfish 16,995]

Maybe the push pin is worn

[pfrederi 17,738]

There are two lengths for eh pins in Big blocks...maybe wrong one???  What is spec Number??

 

 

[formariz 11,987]

1 hour ago, pfrederi said:

There are two lengths for eh pins in Big blocks...maybe wrong one???  What is spec Number??

 

 

I’ll have to look at the specs. This is however an engine that for sure has never been opened up.

[pfrederi 17,738]

7 minutes ago, formariz said:

I’ll have to look at the specs. This is however an engine that for sure has never been opened up.

 

 

Maybe some PO lost the pin when doing a tuneup???

 

My other thought was cam gear one tooth off.... but if never opened.....

[formariz 11,987]

1 minute ago, pfrederi said:

 

 

Maybe some PO lost the pin when doing a tuneup???

 

My other thought was cam gear one tooth off.... but if never opened.....

Seems to me that those pins are not possible to take out unless one opens engine. All the ones I encountered seem to be a little “ mushroomed “ from the contact with cam and would not come out. 

[pfrederi 17,738]

I have pulled them out that is when i discovered there were two lengths...(ordered wrong part ## )

[pacer 3,169]

2 hours ago, formariz said:

gap is only .003 rather than the normal .020. 
Tractor now runs perfectly.

 

Are you saying the motor "runs perfectly" with the gap a .003??? 

[squonk 41,099]

I think you will find a Kohler will run with a wide variation in points gap. Remember unlike a Briggs or Tecky the points run off the cam which means the crank turns twice to the cam's once. The points on a Kohler are open for MOST of the 4 cycles. They only close briefly to close the coil Primary circuit. The key is when they open to induce that spark. 

 

I had a 301 in the Skonkmobile. Ran great but it was LOUD! I tried about 5 different style mufflers. Nothing worked to my satisfaction. After digging into it I found the spark was happening after TDC. I set the points with the meter and it became a lot quieter.

 

Last fall I decided to replace the points and cond. on my 857. Set them with the meter. I don't remember what the gap ended up at. After starting the engine I connected my timing advance light. If I advanced the light 8° the spark flash lined the spark mark on the flywheel with the engine plate mark. We haven't gotten any snow to speak of so the tractor has been sitting. I went out a couple of weeks ago and with out pulling the choke or throttle out I turned the key and it started on one revolution. It has never run this good since I've had it.

[pacer 3,169]

7 minutes ago, squonk said:

find a Kohler will run with a wide variation in points gap.

I agree, and have seen one run at some pretty different settings ..... but. .003?? Havent run across one THAT much......

[squonk 41,099]

A new set of points and condenser might do it. All you're doing is interrupting the primary circuit at the proper time. As they wear an adjustment may be needed to keep the current from jumping the close points gap

[Ed Kennell 38,167]

I've had many tired Kohlers that run best at .015 - .018 gap.   I assumed due to pin wear, but .003 ??

[formariz 11,987]

1 hour ago, pacer said:

 

Are you saying the motor "runs perfectly" with the gap a .003??? 

 

15 minutes ago, Ed Kennell said:

I've had many tired Kohlers that run best at .015 - .018 gap.   I assumed due to pin wear, but .003 ??

That is the reason for this post. Motor runs perfectly. Starts immediately runs smooth at any RPM and accelerates and decelerates smoothly with no hesitations. The gap has me baffled. I double checked it a few times and it is .003. It was not easy either to adjust since even the slightest turn of screw to tighten it wanted to close contacts. It literally drove me a bit nuts. I wasn’t even confident that it was going to start. 
 I can’t say how it was before because I did not check it. However even after the coil, condenser  change which were done before points it did not sound right. Sounded like it had a bad condenser. Hence the decision to change points and redo timing. Honestly it is possibly now the best sounding and working 301 that I have. 

Edited February 9, 2023 by formariz

[squonk 41,099]

Setting points will drive you bonkers. I've set the points with the meter and noticed the gap wasn't close to.020. Then I fudged  the setting to .018-.020". But I think the key is getting the points to begin to break at the spark line

[953 nut 55,216]

2 hours ago, squonk said:

Remember unlike a Briggs or Tecky the points run off the cam which means the crank turns twice to the cam's once. The points on a Kohler are open for MOST of the 4 cycles. They only close briefly to close the coil Primary circuit.

Mike, the points remain Closed the majority of the time and open about twenty degrees before TDC.

With a battery ignition system, the ignition points are closed the majority of the time. With the points closed and the ignition switch ON the primary windings of the ignition coil have current flowing through them and are developing a magnetic field in the iron core of the ignition coil. The moment the ignition points open the magnetic field collapses and induces a momentary high voltage pulse in the secondary windings of the coil which goes through the spark plug wire and arcs across the gap of the spark plug. If this occurs in the presence of a compressed fuel/air mixture of the proper ratio an explosion will occur within the cylinder. If this explosion occurs at the proper time in the engine’s cycle there will be pressure applied to the piston forcing it downward on the power stroke. The ignition points will continue to open further after this has occurred. How far they open is immaterial, their work has been done for that cycle of engine operation. What is important is when they open relative to the position of the piston on its compression/power revolution. If it occurs too soon there will be backfiring, too late and there will be a reduction of power. In the case of our Kohler engines the sweet spot is twenty degrees Before Top Dead Center, that is what the “SP” mark on the flywheel is set. At the moment the points open the condenser quenches the arc across the points extending their life, the rest of the time it just sits there.

Static timing can be done with Kohler engines that do not have a Spark Advance camshaft. The instructions in the Kohler Engine Service Manual for static timing of the later ACR camshaft engines calls for an Ohm Meter to be used. I prefer a 12 Volt Test Light. The light will be connected between the battery “+” terminal and the lead that connects the points to the coil (disconnected from the coil). When the points are closed the light will be on, the moment the points open the light will go off. You don’t have to be focused on it like you would on a meter. With the test light situated near the sight hole for the flywheel (spark plug out so the engine will turn with ease), turn the flywheel slowly by hand in the clockwise direction (counter-clockwise if on the PTO end) until the moment the light goes out. If the “SP” mark is centered in the hole you are done, if not you have a little work to do. If the points are opening too late, they need to be opened further, if it occurs too early they need to be closed up some. Make gradual adjustments until the “SP” mark on the flywheel is centered in the sight hole at the moment the light goes out. Now tighten the screw securely and turn the engine over several revolutions to be sure the points are consistently opening at the proper moment.

[Achto 27,570]

The length of the points pin should not matter all that much as long as it reaches the points arm. If the pin is touching the points arm then it is touching the points arm. The lobe on the cam is what controls the opening and closing. I would venture to believe that the cam lobe is worn. This would effect when the points open and how far the points arm will move.  As long as the points loose contact at the advance mark on the flywheel the engine should run good. This is my thought but I'm open for debate.

[squonk 41,099]

1 hour ago, 953 nut said:

Mike, the points remain Closed the majority of the time and open about twenty degrees before TDC.

With a battery ignition system, the ignition points are closed the majority of the time. With the points closed and the ignition switch ON the primary windings of the ignition coil have current flowing through them and are developing a magnetic field in the iron core of the ignition coil. The moment the ignition points open the magnetic field collapses and induces a momentary high voltage pulse in the secondary windings of the coil which goes through the spark plug wire and arcs across the gap of the spark plug. If this occurs in the presence of a compressed fuel/air mixture of the proper ratio an explosion will occur within the cylinder. If this explosion occurs at the proper time in the engine’s cycle there will be pressure applied to the piston forcing it downward on the power stroke. The ignition points will continue to open further after this has occurred. How far they open is immaterial, their work has been done for that cycle of engine operation. What is important is when they open relative to the position of the piston on its compression/power revolution. If it occurs too soon there will be backfiring, too late and there will be a reduction of power. In the case of our Kohler engines the sweet spot is twenty degrees Before Top Dead Center, that is what the “SP” mark on the flywheel is set. At the moment the points open the condenser quenches the arc across the points extending their life, the rest of the time it just sits there.

Static timing can be done with Kohler engines that do not have a Spark Advance camshaft. The instructions in the Kohler Engine Service Manual for static timing of the later ACR camshaft engines calls for an Ohm Meter to be used. I prefer a 12 Volt Test Light. The light will be connected between the battery “+” terminal and the lead that connects the points to the coil (disconnected from the coil). When the points are closed the light will be on, the moment the points open the light will go off. You don’t have to be focused on it like you would on a meter. With the test light situated near the sight hole for the flywheel (spark plug out so the engine will turn with ease), turn the flywheel slowly by hand in the clockwise direction (counter-clockwise if on the PTO end) until the moment the light goes out. If the “SP” mark is centered in the hole you are done, if not you have a little work to do. If the points are opening too late, they need to be opened further, if it occurs too early they need to be closed up some. Make gradual adjustments until the “SP” mark on the flywheel is centered in the sight hole at the moment the light goes out. Now tighten the screw securely and turn the engine over several revolutions to be sure the points are consistently opening at the proper mome

I could have sworn I discovered the points stayed open but your right. Main  reason not to leave the key on. Memory is the first thing to go.  I do know I adjusted my timing light to 8deg advance and the marks lined up and it runs sweet.

Edited February 10, 2023 by squonk

[kpinnc 12,017]

8 hours ago, formariz said:

This is however an engine that for sure has never been opened up.

 

Probably never been adjusted either. These engines last thousands of hours so long as they have some oil to sling around inside. I can see the valves getting out that far after 500+ hours.

[rmaynard 15,453]

I too find the .003 to be curious. That small of a gap just doesn't seem right.

 

Just to deviate a bit back to 2011. I experimented with a modification for points on a K-series engine. This mod allowed you to actually adjust the points with the engine running. It was a bracket that mounted on the engine, and then you used Chevy points that had an Allen screw, spring-loaded adjustment. The experiment went well, but I found that it was not practical for everyday use. Guys were using them for pulling tractors and cleaning the whole set-up after each use. In winter, they were prone to getting wet since the cover could not be sealed against the weather. I shelved the system and went back to regular Kohler points.

 

For more info go to: https://mwsc.co/collections/k-series-engine-parts/products/points-bracket

 

Here is a picture of the points:

 

 

You can find the discussion here at https://www.wheelhorseforum.com/topic/23910-kohler-points/?tab=comments#comment-210266

 

[squonk 41,099]

Seems to me if the bracket was made out of "U" channel instead of an "L" a cover could have been fashioned to seal it. Have a small hole in the front or bottom with a grommet for the wire and a bigger hole with a rubber plug for the adjustment.

 

[stevasaurus 22,732]

That bracket for points that Bob shows uses the old Chevy D-106-PS points on the Kohler 10 hp and up Kohlers.  The PS stands for Pre-set for the dwell on like 283 and 327 Chev's.    Those distributor caps had a little sheet metal door that lifted up to adjust the points with and Allen Wrench.  

Edited February 10, 2023 by stevasaurus

[squonk 41,099]

54 minutes ago, stevasaurus said:

That bracket for points that Bob shows uses the old Chevy D-106-PS points on the Kohler 10 hp and up Kohlers.  The PS stands for Pre-set for the dwell on like 283 and 327 Chev's.    Those distributor caps had a little sheet metal door that lifted up to adjust the points with and Allen Wrench.  

I used to have a tool that  was about a foot long and curved. Had a cable inside with an Allen wrench on one end and a knob on the other. Open the window and insert the Allen end into the points. Turn the knob with the engine running and watch the dwell meter.

[formariz 11,987]

On 2/9/2023 at 11:55 PM, kpinnc said:

 

Probably never been adjusted either. These engines last thousands of hours so long as they have some oil to sling around inside. I can see the valves getting out that far after 500+ hours.

You probably have the right answer. This is an engine with definitely a lot of wear. It only smokes slightly at start up but it uses oil. However like most Kohlers it works well regardless of the wear. I wonder however if that small of a gap is an indication of will happen in the near future. 

[pfrederi 17,738]

18 hours ago, squonk said:

I used to have a tool that  was about a foot long and curved. Had a cable inside with an Allen wrench on one end and a knob on the other. Open the window and insert the Allen end into the points. Turn the knob with the engine running and watch the dwell meter.

 

 

  Like this one???  So much easier doing the points on my 66 Chevelle than my friends Ford. 

 

 

[squonk 41,099]

12 minutes ago, pfrederi said:

 

 

  Like this one???  So much easier doing the points on my 66 Chevelle than my friends Ford. 

 

 

 

Mine was like this. also for adjusting carb mixture. 1/4" drive on the end. I could put a 1/8" hex bit socket on for points. 3/32" hex for Chrysler 2.2 carbs which was used every day almost in the early 80's