416 - 8 project - not starting

[Dan.gerous 2,696]

Today's project is to see why the 416-8 refuses to start.

 

It's completely dead so got pushed into a corner 6 months ago and forgotten about.

 

Have a new multimeter (that I don't know how to use) the fire is on and going to try and find where the power isn't going!

[Pullstart 62,916]

Use your meter to test the battery voltage.  It looks like it walked off to me.  

[Dan.gerous 2,696]

6 minutes ago, Pullstart said:

Use your meter to test the battery voltage.  It looks like it walked off to me.  

That could have been the problem!

 

Fresh battery in place now.

 

Seat switch was a bit iffy, so have bypassed that, but it's not the main issue.

 

The little fuse box in the photo might be part of it. The middle fuse needs wiggling to get all the idiot lights on.

 

When you turn the key you just get a gentle click somewhere - not sure where yet. I'm not familiar with this machine at all.

[OutdoorEnvy 1,522]

For sure try and clean up the connections on those fuses and verify fuses are good. 

 

Next thing to do now that you know battery is good and adequately charged, it's quick and free so don't worry, is to clean up your grounds.  The negative battery cable ground to frame and the solenoid ground.  Clean them both with a wire wheel or brush or sand paper to bare metal.  Dielectric grease can be used as well if you have it, but not necessary.  The solenoid will either be self grounded with the bolts or have a black lead wire to the frame or engine.  Clean to metal whichever you have for a secure connection.  This has solved 4:5 of the clicking issue you are at for me.

 

Also on the seat switch.  Removing the wire connections and sanding the terminals on the switch and cleaning or replacing the connectors on the wires has fixed most of my switch issues.  You can also test the switch to see if it is good or not.  Easy vids on youtube on how to do this.  

 

Good luck and keep us posted! 

[Sailman 1,291]

The clicking is usually associated with bad connection somewhere.

 

If you need to go further, try to determine the year model of the tractor using the ID tag on the tractor and cross reference with http://www.mywheelhorse.com/graphics/file/Wheel_Horse_Products_Master_Model_List.pdf.

 

My guess is its a later 1980's model due to the idiot lights and engine. When you know the year go to the manuals forum here and you should find a wiring schematic for that tractor plus other owners information.

 

I have the 416-8 first year 1985 with no idiot lights and Kohler K-341. Its a beast!

Edited February 2, 2023 by Sailman

[Dan.gerous 2,696]

3 minutes ago, OutdoorEnvy said:

For sure try and clean up the connections on those fuses and verify fuses are good. 

 

Next thing to do now that you know battery is good and adequately charged, it's quick and free so don't worry, is to clean up your grounds.  The negative battery cable ground to frame and the solenoid ground.  Clean them both with a wire wheel or brush or sand paper to bare metal.  Dielectric grease can be used as well if you have it, but not necessary.  The solenoid will either be self grounded with the bolts or have a black lead wire to the frame or engine.  Clean to metal whichever you have for a secure connection.  This has solved 4:5 of the clicking issue you are at for me.

 

Also on the seat switch.  Removing the wire connections and sanding the terminals on the switch and cleaning or replacing the connectors on the wires has fixed most of my switch issues.  You can also test the switch to see if it is good or not.  Easy vids on youtube on how to do this.  

 

Good luck and keep us posted! 

Just making a cup of tea then will work through the earth's  - will let you know the outcome.

[Dan.gerous 2,696]

2 minutes ago, Sailman said:

Try to determine the year model of the tractor using the ID tag on the tractor and cross reference with http://www.mywheelhorse.com/graphics/file/Wheel_Horse_Products_Master_Model_List.pdf.

 

My guess is its a later 1980's model due to the idiot lights and engine. When you know the year go to the manuals forum here and you should find a wiring schematic for that tractor plus other owners information.

 

I have the 416-8 first year 1985 with no idiot lights and Kohler K-341. Its a beast!

I have only ever had this running once since buying and it sounded amazing!

 

Would prefer your one without the idiot lights though  - I can see this turning into a nightmare!

[Sailman 1,291]

I prefer the KISS principle (keep it simple stupid). That being said once you get yours figured out I don't think its a big problem on that tractor. Some of the later 520's with Onan's can have a wiring /  electrical problem it seems. Yours is a great tractor. Your problem is likely to be a simple connection issue.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Sailman

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,048]

Download the file for a diagram for just the starter

 

[Sailman 1,291]

OK yours is a 1996 or 1997 and it does have the Onan engine. I mistook it for the later model Kohler. Don't know as much about that year model but again it is likely a connection issue. Many folks love the Onan's. 416-8 will do anything you want it too!

Edited February 2, 2023 by Sailman

[Dan.gerous 2,696]

So the little box with three fuses has melted plastic in the holder - that seems to be a problem. All the fuses are fine, but 2 of them in the melted area are not connecting well.

 

I have loosened the box, but its a nightmare to try and get the wires in any better  - they could have left a bit more slack to work with.

 

Earth's seemed fine, the engine mount one can't be removed without half the covers coming off. I made a temporary earth with jumper cable but it didn't make any difference.

[Dan.gerous 2,696]

It's the 30amp fuse in the starter circuit that's been melted.

 

The fuse is fine, so it's likely historical damage, but is probably the bad connection.

 

I guess a new holder needs to be ordered, that would eliminate one issue. Not keen on trying to get that out and a new one wired up and in!

[Dan.gerous 2,696]

How do you jump the starter on one of these? 

 

It hasn't been turned over for a long time.

[OutdoorEnvy 1,522]

Easiest way is if you have jumper cables and connect them to the battery then connect the negative clamp to a ground on the engine somewhere, like a bolt or fin, then with the key on touch the positive clamp to the bolt on the starter that takes the cable.  Youtube vids on this as well. 

[Dan.gerous 2,696]

14 minutes ago, OutdoorEnvy said:

Easiest way is if you have jumper cables and connect them to the battery then connect the negative clamp to a ground on the engine somewhere, like a bolt or fin, then with the key on touch the positive clamp to the bolt on the starter that takes the cable.  Youtube vids on this as well. 

Thanks, will try that later.

 

I know it's a great resource but I hate watching YouTube. A friend of mine does nothing but watch them and is an expert on everything.....but not when it comes to reality!

 

Hands on and reading usually works for me :-)

[peter lena 8,637]

@Dan.gerous  those models , typically suffer from wire chafing  / shorting , also power dry  cracked plastic connections .agree with @OutdoorEnvy  on the way to get this going , that cable connection from battery ground bolt point to engine / frame /  rectifier , will make that  amperage gauge wake up . take advantage of what  responds , stop / look at what you  have gained , probably a frayed melted wires ,  have any alligator clip test wires  ,  https://www.bing.com/search?FORM=UP97DF&PC=UP97&q=alligator+clip+leads  regularly use these to jump over a problem , pete

[Dan.gerous 2,696]

21 minutes ago, peter lena said:

@Dan.gerous  those models , typically suffer from wire chafing  / shorting , also power dry  cracked plastic connections .agree with @OutdoorEnvy  on the way to get this going , that cable connection from battery ground bolt point to engine / frame /  rectifier , will make that  amperage gauge wake up . take advantage of what  responds , stop / look at what you  have gained , probably a frayed melted wires ,  have any alligator clip test wires  ,  https://www.bing.com/search?FORM=UP97DF&PC=UP97&q=alligator+clip+leads  regularly use these to jump over a problem , pete

Luckily some alligator wires turned up yesterday to solve an unrelated problem  - perfect timing.

 

So there might be smoke when I try to jump the engine?

 

I wish I was better at this electrical malarkey, but riding high after we sorted the gremlins on the C125 earlier in the week. Mind you, this Onan is a very different beast!

[lynnmor 7,308]

In the USA we can buy the fuse block rather cheap at places like AutoZone, I don't know what you have available.

[Dan.gerous 2,696]

12 minutes ago, lynnmor said:

In the USA we can buy the fuse block rather cheap at places like AutoZone, I don't know what you have available.

I'm not really sure, it's outside my comfort zone!

 

Will have a look online and see what's about, but we have a few places that sell automobile components like Europarts etc

[lynnmor 7,308]

Here is what you are looking for, RockAuto has them for $3.63.  Amazon is another source for the Dorman 85668.

[Dan.gerous 2,696]

11 minutes ago, lynnmor said:

Here is what you are looking for, RockAuto has them for $3.63.  Amazon is another source for the Dorman 85668.

Thanks, just found that on amazon UK for about £15.

 

It's got to help as the current one is a mess. 

[peter lena 8,637]

@Dangerous  think if you jump over the plastic connection point you will be good, on the other hand if you feel better with someone that has some electrical experience , might be better , pete

  

[Dan.gerous 2,696]

5 minutes ago, peter lena said:

@Dangerous  think if you jump over the plastic connection point you will be good, on the other hand if you feel better with someone that has some electrical experience , might be better , pete

  

I can give it a try, never learn otherwise

[lynnmor 7,308]

4 hours ago, Dan.gerous said:

Thanks, just found that on amazon UK for about £15.

 

It's got to help as the current one is a mess. 

Just pay attention how the connector strips are arranged in the old block, a photo will help. 

 

Wheelhorse Parts and More has a cap for the fuse block.  If that is too expensive to import, perhaps you could fashion one from some rubber.

 

[Lagersolut 661]

9 hours ago, Dan.gerous said:

That could have been the problem!

 

Fresh battery in place now.

 

Seat switch was a bit iffy, so have bypassed that, but it's not the main issue.

 

The little fuse box in the photo might be part of it. The middle fuse needs wiggling to get all the idiot lights on.

 

When you turn the key you just get a gentle click somewhere - not sure where yet. I'm not familiar with this machine at all.

 

When I bought and put my 416 in the hospital those open fuses were corroded and shot - replaced everything with these sealed inline fuses so moister and dirt weren't contaminating the connections

https://www.amazon.com/SIM-NAT-Automotive-Standard-Replacement/dp/B07FQCBSJ5/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=1AG7EWGJ05RQT&keywords=inline+sealed+fuse+holder&qid=1675382012&sprefix=inline+sealed+fuse+holder%2Caps%2C206&sr=8-2-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExS0xaVUU1TFVUU01ZJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwODAzMzIzMUgzNlJIT1IyWUI0QSZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwODcyMTAzMThBOTI3NUgyTjBaQiZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=