C165

[John2189 451]

I have a c165.  I know the 16 is the horse power, but what does the 5 stand for?  
 

the same for my 656

 

john

[ebinmaine 67,426]

Wheelhorse nomenclature changed a bit over the years. 

 

The C series began in 1974. 

C-160 was the first. 

They ran through 1977. 

78 brought a change to the steering tower. 

Those were a C161. 

Yours being a C165 should make it a black hood model.  

 

After 1983 the 300, 400 series were created. 

Same basic frame and drive train the whole time.  

 

 

 

The 656 is:

6. HP. 

5. 3 speed manual transmission with electric start.  

6. The year. 1966.   

[John2189 451]

5 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

Wheelhorse nomenclature changed a bit over the years. 

 

The C series began in 1974. 

C-160 was the first. 

They ran through 1977. 

78 brought a change to the steering tower. 

Those were a C161. 

Yours being a C165 should make it a black hood model.  

 

After 1983 the 300, 400 series were created. 

Same basic frame and drive train the whole time.  

 

 

 

The 656 is:

6. HP. 

5. 3 speed manual transmission with electric start.  

6. The year. 1966.   

Thanks. The c165 hood is red, but there is red overspray on the decals on the side. 
 

the 656 has a 12 horse tecky and a sms42 sickle mower 

[SylvanLakeWH 25,535]

How about a picture? 

[John2189 451]

10 minutes ago, SylvanLakeWH said:

How about a picture? 

Best pics I have 

[ebinmaine 67,426]

That "12" 56 is a neat looking rig. Must be quite the beast with that engine. 

 

 

[John2189 451]

1 minute ago, ebinmaine said:

That "12" 56 is a neat looking rig. Must be quite the beast with that engine. 

 

 

Both tractors was given to me by a friend. The C165 had a broken connecting rod , and it broke a small piece off of the cylinder skirt, it was well below the rings so I put a new rod in it and it runs great.  Put it in first gear low range and its a tank. 

The 656 engine, the ignition coil was bad. I found a fix on you tube that uses a ford brake sensor and a gm ignition module   It runs ok but anything over 1/2 throttle it back fires. Im ok with that since you run the sickle at a low speed.   The sickle wobble box was loose and wouldn’t hold oil so i put new bushings and seal in it. 
 

[SylvanLakeWH 25,535]

The 165 is definitely a repainted Black Hood. Hoods look like this original:

 

 

[Pullstart 62,835]

Cool tractors!  Nice friend!

[John2189 451]

1 minute ago, Pullstart said:

Cool tractors!  Nice friend!

Thanks.  He was moving and didn’t have room for them. I really don’t have the room either, but they are out of the weather. The 165 some day I would like to paint it. It is really good condition. 
the 656 looks good the way it is. I’ve heard of a way to protect the patina, but I can’t remember now.  
I think the sickle is probably worth a couple of bucks. 

[953 nut 55,190]

3 minutes ago, John2189 said:

656 looks good the way it is. I’ve heard of a way to protect the patina, but I can’t remember now.

        There are many ways to "PROTECT" patina but in my opinion it quits being patina if you cover or disguise it in any way. Just keep it in it's work clothes and celebrate the hard work and quality workmanship it took to look that good.            

[John2189 451]

36 minutes ago, SylvanLakeWH said:

The 165 is definitely a repainted Black Hood. Hoods look like this original:

 

 

I do like the black hood. Is it a flat black?

[pacer 3,169]

Two nice horses, and the price sure couldnt be beat!

 

Nothing to back it up, but my my impression is the black was more of a satin/semi gloss instead of a full flat  --- but, that like the red paints, whatever strikes you as the one YOU like will be the best

[SylvanLakeWH 25,535]

21 minutes ago, John2189 said:

I do like the black hood. Is it a flat black?

Satin black - Rustoleum 

[Pullstart 62,835]

1 hour ago, John2189 said:

Thanks.  He was moving and didn’t have room for them. I really don’t have the room either, but they are out of the weather. The 165 some day I would like to paint it. It is really good condition. 
the 656 looks good the way it is. I’ve heard of a way to protect the patina, but I can’t remember now.  
I think the sickle is probably worth a couple of bucks. 

Well if you ever want to store that 656 and the sickle at my place… I won’t charge a thing!  

[SylvanLakeWH 25,535]

9 minutes ago, Pullstart said:

Well if you ever want to store that 656 and the sickle at my place… I won’t charge a thing!  

 

How magnanimous of you @Pullstart... 

 

@John2189 - While you're in Michigan dropping the 656 off, I'd be happy to store the Black Hood free of charge!!! 

[John2189 451]

4 minutes ago, SylvanLakeWH said:

 

How magnanimous of you @Pullstart... 

 

@John2189 - While you're in Michigan dropping the 656 off, I'd be happy to store the Black Hood free of charge!!! 

Thank you guys for your generous offers, but I think I will keep them. 😊

[Pullstart 62,835]

3 minutes ago, John2189 said:

Thank you guys for your generous offers, but I think I will keep them. 😊

Just think of all the room you’d gain 

[Brockport Bill 1,661]

18 hours ago, John2189 said:

I have a c165.  I know the 16 is the horse power, but what does the 5 stand for?  
 

the same for my 656

 

john

john -- heres my grandson's C165 Blackhood he and I rescued last year from someone's backyard weeds area that had been sitting many yrs............. we have only really done some modest mechanical work on it but runs fine now - plus a few cosmetics since this photo - we also have two C175 blackhoods

[John2189 451]

They look nice.  Most of the red is ok on mine so I will just paint the hood back to black 

[Brockport Bill 1,661]

here are updated photos of the C175 Blackhood we did some rehab on - including new decal - We did black footrests, and the Engine tin, plus the rims just as some added black to compliment the blackhood design

[ebinmaine 67,426]

On 1/20/2023 at 7:42 AM, John2189 said:

Both tractors was given to me by a friend. The C165 had a broken connecting rod , and it broke a small piece off of the cylinder skirt, it was well below the rings so I put a new rod in it and it runs great.  Put it in first gear low range and its a tank. 

The 656 engine, the ignition coil was bad. I found a fix on you tube that uses a ford brake sensor and a gm ignition module   It runs ok but anything over 1/2 throttle it back fires. Im ok with that since you run the sickle at a low speed.   The sickle wobble box was loose and wouldn’t hold oil so i put new bushings and seal in it. 
 

 

John, I was poking around here on Redsquare looking for something about a points setting and found this thread again while down a rabbit 🐰 hole 🕳️  looking at "GM module". 

 

It reminded me that I meant to tell you the other day about the backfiring issue.  

It's a fair possibility that your upper RPM flywheel pin needs to be set at a different distance from the sensor.  

@Ed Stoller mentions that in a video of his on YouTube somewhere and when I spoke with him in person. 

The pins can likely be swapped out for a taller piece of steel tubing and epoxied on.  

 

Also, 

Be particularly conscious of the "load" or "work" you're putting to the engine at low RPM.  

I don't have a sickle bar personally but I'm aware that they're meant to be run at low RPM. 

Remember these are AIR cooled and maybe more importantly to your case, SPLASH LUBE engines. 

 

I've read many times and heard from repair shops that these engines should not be run more than a minute, preferably less, at idle. It's only there to let the fuel flow calm down just before shutoff.  

 

Think of it this way... If you don't have enough RPM, you don't have enough "splash" which means you also don't have enough oil movement. 

 

@Jeff-C175  I think (?)  has, or has mentioned,  a generator that uses a Kohler 12 which runs at 1800. 

That's as low as I'd be remotely interested in operating an air cooled splash lube small engine under any load.  

 

 

[John2189 451]

2 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

 

John, I was poking around here on Redsquare looking for something about a points setting and found this thread again while down a rabbit 🐰 hole 🕳️  looking at "GM module". 

 

It reminded me that I meant to tell you the other day about the backfiring issue.  

It's a fair possibility that your upper RPM flywheel pin needs to be set at a different distance from the sensor.  

@Ed Stoller mentions that in a video of his on YouTube somewhere and when I spoke with him in person. 

The pins can likely be swapped out for a taller piece of steel tubing and epoxied on.  

 

Also, 

Be particularly conscious of the "load" or "work" you're putting to the engine at low RPM.  

I don't have a sickle bar personally but I'm aware that they're meant to be run at low RPM. 

Remember these are AIR cooled and maybe more importantly to your case, SPLASH LUBE engines. 

 

I've read many times and heard from repair shops that these engines should not be run more than a minute, preferably less, at idle. It's only there to let the fuel flow calm down just before shutoff.  

 

Think of it this way... If you don't have enough RPM, you don't have enough "splash" which means you also don't have enough oil movement. 

 

@Jeff-C175  I think (?)  has, or has mentioned,  a generator that uses a Kohler 12 which runs at 1800. 

That's as low as I'd be remotely interested in operating an air cooled splash lube small engine under any load.  

 

 

Thanks,  I assume the pins are original.  I was thinking maybe I didn’t have the sensor in the right location. I measured as close as I could from the old ignition coil. The you tube video I found this on gave a measurement for the air gap between the tall pin and the sensor, maybe I don’t have it set right. I will search for Ed Stollers video. 
I never gave a thought about the oil splash, but I normally run it about 1/2 throttle 

 

[ebinmaine 67,426]

14 minutes ago, John2189 said:

Thanks,  I assume the pins are original.  I was thinking maybe I didn’t have the sensor in the right location. I measured as close as I could from the old ignition coil. The you tube video I found this on gave a measurement for the air gap between the tall pin and the sensor, maybe I don’t have it set right. I will search for Ed Stollers video. 
I never gave a thought about the oil splash, but I normally run it about 1/2 throttle 

 

Later today I'll try to find the video if you haven't already got it. 

 

The half throttle setting should be fine for you.   

That's likely right around that 1800 to 2400 RPM area.  

 

 

[Racinbob 11,050]

2 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

Also, 

Be particularly conscious of the "load" or "work" you're putting to the engine at low RPM.  

I don't have a sickle bar personally but I'm aware that they're meant to be run at low RPM. 

Remember these are AIR cooled and maybe more importantly to your case, SPLASH LUBE engines. 

 

I've read many times and heard from repair shops that these engines should not be run more than a minute, preferably less, at idle. It's only there to let the fuel flow calm down just before shutoff.  

 

Think of it this way... If you don't have enough RPM, you don't have enough "splash" which means you also don't have enough oil movement. 

 

@Jeff-C175  I think (?)  has, or has mentioned,  a generator that uses a Kohler 12 which runs at 1800. 

That's as low as I'd be remotely interested in operating an air cooled splash lube small engine under any load.  

 

 

 

Eric, I want to put my 2¢ in on the engine RPM. There's a lot of splishing and splashing going on even at idle. Think about how many times a second that dipper is grabbing oil. Plenty to keep things lubricated and plenty of air movement too. Back in the 60's and 70's my Dad would pull the kids, little and big, with his one lung Kohler. His property had some hills and he would chug up and down just barely above idle. Sometimes it seemed like a challenge to him to see how much he could pull before he had to rev is up a bit. Sometimes he killed it before he could get her revved. He did that for many many years until I took over and do the same. Never had an issue. I'm not suggesting doing that but I am saying that I simply don't buy into the 'must run at high RPM' crowd.