gear drive vs hydro

[857lover 291]

so i am curious all i ever have owned is gear drive tractor’s because they feel more unique but my buddy has a 416-h and in the dirt i feel like it grips the ground and digs in way better than my 416-8 and i feel like i’m always just stuck spinning one wheel is there a reason the hydro feels superior ? 

[cleat 6,007]

I mostly have hydro's myself but grew up on a farm driving tractors and I can tell you that tires and weight are the two biggest things for traction.

[ebinmaine 67,553]

1 hour ago, cleat said:

I mostly have hydro's myself but grew up on a farm driving tractors and I can tell you that tires and weight are the two biggest things for traction.

THAT is the answer. 

 

 

[Ed Kennell 38,196]

To my knowledge, none of the hydros Eaton or Sundstrand have an LSD (limited slip differential).

Some of the gear drive 8 speeds do have LSD.     If the LSD is still functioning, they should have less one wheel spin.

IMO, the hydro is the best  because of having infinite speed control with engine at WOT.       

The exception would be when using a tiller where the tiller is pushing the tractor.   The gear drive will hold back the tractor better than the hydro.

The hydro also requires 1-2 HP to operate the pump, so this is loss the gear drive does not have.

So yes, tires, chains, and weight are the items that determine traction.

 

Now that I think about it, all other things being equal,if  the hydro weighs more than the gear drive, it could have better traction.

 

[Achto 27,594]

6 hours ago, Ed Kennell said:

To my knowledge, none of the hydros Eaton or Sundstrand have an LSD (limited slip differential)

 

Just for info purposes - I took apart a Bronco 14 that had a 10 pinion LSD diff in it. The Charger 12 is listed as having the same set up. Part #7235 in the manual. 

 

https://www.wheelhorseforum.com/files/file/339-tractor-1972-bronco-14-charger-10-charger-12-ipl-wiring-revpdf/

 

 

No LSD spring shown for the 8 pinion diff on a 416-H

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by Achto

[ebinmaine 67,553]

6 hours ago, Ed Kennell said:

 

 

Now that I think about it, all other things being equal,if  the hydro weighs more than the gear drive, it could have better traction.

 

 

My Sundstrand Automatic 1975 C160 is a good strong 50 lb heavier than the comparable 8-speed. Traction is noticeably better.

 

6 hours ago, Ed Kennell said:

Sundstrand have an LSD

 

As stated by Dan above. There were some late '60s? Definitely early 70s hydros with 10 pinion Limited Slip Differential.  

 

 

 

[Achto 27,594]

Did a little more research.

 

'65-'67 Hydro models used a spider gear differential (Something new that I learned today.) They did not have a LSD

'68 Hydro models switched to a 10 pinion planetary differential with the tension spring for LSD.

Out of time to research, but I'm going to guess that the LSD was dropped when they switched to an 8 pinion planetary diff.

Edited January 19, 2023 by Achto

[ebinmaine 67,553]

26 minutes ago, Achto said:

Did a little more research.

 

'65-'67 Hydro models used a spider gear differential (Something new that I learned today.) They did not have a LSD

'68 Hydro models switched to a 10 pinion planetary differential with the tension spring for LSD.

Out of time to research, but I'm going to guess that the LSD was dropped when they switched to an 8 pinion planetary diff.

 

@gt14rider

Is in the middle of doing a 1973 with Limited Slip right now. 

 

I've been into the transmissions of at least half a dozen 1974 and 5 and they all have regular 8-speed 8 pinion.  

[953 nut 55,280]

9 hours ago, cleat said:

tires and weight are the two biggest things for traction.

         Liquid fill your tires and hang some wheel weights on the wheels or any other rear weight and you will notice a big difference.

[Ed Kennell 38,196]

1 hour ago, Achto said:

Out of time to research,

Thanks for the effort Dan,     This is the first I have ever heard of an LSD in a hydro.     Maybe this list should go in the hydro  transmission manuals section. @gwest_ca

[857lover 291]

1 hour ago, Ed Kennell said:

Thanks for the effort Dan,     This is the first I have ever heard of an LSD in a hydro.     Maybe this list should go in the hydro  transmission manuals section. @gwest_ca

i haven’t heard of that either ! 

[ebinmaine 67,553]

12 minutes ago, 857lover said:

i haven’t heard of that either ! 

I'm fairly new to the Wheel Horse community. I got started in with this crazy bunch about 6 or 7 years ago I guess?

Up until a couple years ago ALL of the tractors in our Herd were gear drive.

 

At that time I got my first Hydro which was a 1970 Charger with Hydro lift.

 

I only bought it because it was a Hydro lift. When I started getting into the mechanical aspects of it I found out that there were late 60s, early 70s Hydro tractors with a similar 10 pinion setup to the six speeds Trina likes so much.

 

I liked the fact that it had the limited slip quite a lot but I didn't keep the tractor because it was very worn out.

 

During the automatic restoration that I'm doing right now I would have liked very much to add the Limited Slip Differential while I was in there but I decided that since this particular tractor is going to be SO HEAVY it would be better with the much more Stout 8-speed 8 pinion.  

[sergeant 291]

I currently Have 5 Non Wheel horse gear driven Garden tractor's. My one wheel Horse Is a Hydro a 416H. I know why I usually went with a Hydro was Because They Usually had Hydraulic Lift, Not a Big Fan of electric lift (always found it a bit too slow for winter work)  or Manual Lift. The 5 gear drives That I do have all can be fitted with an external Pump driven Hydraulic lift Or In some I could add an electric over Hydraulic actuator https://www.thomsonlinear.com/en/products/linear-actuators/h-track if I wanted to update their electric Lifts. The Older I get, the Less I like Manual lift, even with a spring assist. The Manual lift is usually fine for front blade work and Lifting the Mowing deck. But for Rear Mounted Clevis or slot Hitch implements, I prefer Hydraulic Lift. Use to Borrow a C 160 Gear drive Back in the Day for Plowing a Garden when I was station at Ft Bragg, NC That 10-inch Brinly plow was never too fun to lift

Edited January 19, 2023 by sergeant

[rmaynard 15,501]

I'm going to chime in here with my 2 cents worth. My first Wheel Horse was an 8-speed, 10hp. I loved the traction. When I plowed snow, I had no issues. Then I got a 416-H 21 years later. Now I think it is the best as far as traction and the only thing I can attribute it to is weight.

[23 Reo 229]

My yard is wet in the spring. Years ago I was given a 1968 Charger 12 that needed work. My other tractors were always getting stuck in the wet. My Charger hardly ever gets stuck. I was at a tractor show in Eliot Me and mentioned to a young man with a 68 Electro 12 that my Charger would go through anything. He owned four or five Horses and they were all hydros. All his hydros had LSD. I don't know if all hydros have LSD but I know my Charger with it's Sundstand 90-2046 has LSD.

[ebinmaine 67,553]

6 minutes ago, 23 Reo said:

My yard is wet in the spring. Years ago I was given a 1968 Charger 12 that needed work. My other tractors were always getting stuck in the wet. My Charger hardly ever gets stuck. I was at a tractor show in Eliot Me and mentioned to a young man with a 68 Electro 12 that my Charger would go through anything. He owned four or five Horses and they were all hydros. All his hydros had LSD. I don't know if all hydros have LSD but I know my Charger with it's Sundstand 90-2046 has LSD.

 

I know the fella you're speaking of. 

Good guy. 

 

To clarify. 

Hydros had Limited Slip Differential available from around 1967 to 1972 or 73 I believe. 

 

Manual transmissions had Limited Slip Differential in the 6 speeds built from 1967 to 1969 and the 8 speeds in the very early 70s. Not sure what years. 

I'm fairly certain that was no longer an option by 1974. 

All 8 speeds by then were the heavier duty 8 pinion type.  Open differential.  

 

 

[pfrederi 17,741]

When the 10 pinion Ltd slips failed most people replaced them with 8 pinion open differentials.  I went the other way i took the 8 pinion open in my WH310-8 and put in a ten pinion LSD and some fat carlilse ags.  She did an amazing job the other day hauling coal up the hill from the barn.  We had 2-3 inches  of semi frozen slush. Charged up the hill both wheels spinning 3rd gear full throttle slowed to a crawl but both wheels kept spinning made it up the hill.  She is my mudder tractor fat tires no weight... floats over the soft stuff.  not good on hard frozen ground..but not much of that this year...

[kpinnc 12,067]

On 1/18/2023 at 10:24 PM, cleat said:

I mostly have hydro's myself but grew up on a farm driving tractors and I can tell you that tires and weight are the two biggest things for traction.

 

A hydro tranny weighs about double what a manual does too, right on the rear tires. Plus a hydro applies torque a little softer at first than a clutch.

[Horse Newbie 7,071]

I drive both gear driven and hydro…

I have never been able to tell any difference in traction…

neither one has ever broke traction while I was using them…

of course I’m usually on dry asphalt cruising the neighborhood…

[kpinnc 12,067]

21 minutes ago, Horse Newbie said:

of course I’m usually on dry asphalt cruising the neighborhood…

 

If you ever get one with traction issues for those conditions, bring it to the house. I wanna drive it! 

[TJ5208 1,824]

On 1/18/2023 at 9:42 PM, 857lover said:

so i am curious all i ever have owned is gear drive tractor’s because they feel more unique but my buddy has a 416-h and in the dirt i feel like it grips the ground and digs in way better than my 416-8 and i feel like i’m always just stuck spinning one wheel is there a reason the hydro feels superior ? 

Bro manual for towing. At least my 520-8 locks the diff.

[cleat 6,007]

My larger tractor has a differential lock pedal as well as independent brakes that go a long ways to get you out of difficult situations.

It is 4x4 as well but that is a different story.

Funny thing is that my larger tractor is a gear drive with a shuttle shift giving 8 forward and 8 reverse speeds where all my wheel horses but one (the Work Horse) is hydro.

 

Edited March 7, 2023 by cleat

[SylvanLakeWH 25,594]

Gear only here... work well for my uses. They just work...

 

[23 Reo 229]

I only have one hydro, the rest are manual but the hydro is great.

[ineedanother 1,369]

On 3/6/2023 at 5:16 PM, ebinmaine said:

To clarify. 

Hydros had Limited Slip Differential available from around 1967 to 1972 or 73 I believe. 

 

I think the auto listing in the manuals section shows the years that they came with LSD and I can say that my '73 no name is 10 pinion LSD, 12hp. I haven't really tested it yet but its days are coming