Hydro Transmissions and Cold Weather

[ebinmaine 70,550]

8 minutes ago, rmaynard said:

I guess that I shouldn't compare the lift mechanism on a Wheel Horse to a JLG man lift. They will stay up and extended as long as you don't touch the controls.

It's possible they have a bleed down rate that's FAR more stringent than most hydraulic systems.  

 

It would make sense given that they move people as the predominant cargo.  

 

Every crane I've ever been around has at least one circuit that would leak down over enough time.  2 or 3 weeks mind you, but eventually.  

 

But the inspection criteria may be very different for a person lift.  

 

 

[pfrederi 18,314]

Only have 1 Eaton 1100 Lift will not operate at first winter or summer.  Changed to Mobil 1 10w30 synthetic no improvement.  5 Sunstrands run on ATF all  pick up instantly and drive  winter or summer

[Ed Kennell 40,398]

1 hour ago, pfrederi said:

  5 Sunstrands run on ATF all  pick up instantly and drive  winter or summer

I have only Eatons now, but some of my past Sunstrands were filled with 10w30 and they all lifted instantly.

I feel this slow cold lift is an Eaton quirk.    It is a mystery though,   why some are not slow.

[Ed Kennell 40,398]

2 hours ago, rmaynard said:

a JLG man lift. They will stay up

I could be wrong, but I thought man lifts had a mechanical safety.    I was thinking scissor lifts, but bucket trucks would not have a safety.

[rjg854 11,871]

Most man lifts are designed to lock in place if not running, or if something happens to the hydraulic system, so it won't drop the the person using the lift.

[Metal Blender 8]

W H,Classic   1990/312-H/Eaton 1100/Virginia, low temp sluggish hydraulics,and noticeable constant noise from above the trans-axle .That could be the hydro unit starved of oil.The same transmission system acting differently in different models could be the answer.While the units are basically the same the oiling systems are different configurations of valves and hoses (lines). I was directed to start with an oil change and new filter as the tractor runs great in warm weather.These machines are well built and the 1100 is a nice system if we had been discussing a box store model it would most definitely be the unit getting replaced lol.I work mine like a horse too lol ,33 years and counting.The attachments are 312-H 1990/Eaton 1100

[peter lena 9,074]

@rmaynard  , been using  an  old style INCANDESCENT  ROUGH SERVICE BULB , in a 10 "  reflector  under my engines ,  just gives off enough heat , to warm the  engine ,  why not try that on a hydraulic  set up ?  got the bulbs on line , they are  silicone dipped , wal mart  has the clip on reflector  ,  to stand  up on or clip onto . have that on 3 engines , it works , pete

[peter lena 9,074]

@rmaynard   https://www.lowes.com/pd/Utilitech-Incandescent-Clamped-Work-Light/5014077199?cm_mmc=shp-_-c-_-prd-_-elc-_-bn   this the type of bulb reflector I use ,   would easily add some heat to a hydraulic  oil source , worth a try .  use the  repetition  of a problem  to make a cure for it , very scary to  many  , personally  love a track to a problem . warm oil , pete 

[ebinmaine 70,550]

@davem1111

Take a read through this thread. Good info here.  

[davem1111 2,091]

On 1/12/2023 at 8:41 AM, peter lena said:

@rmaynard   https://www.lowes.com/pd/Utilitech-Incandescent-Clamped-Work-Light/5014077199?cm_mmc=shp-_-c-_-prd-_-elc-_-bn   this the type of bulb reflector I use ,   would easily add some heat to a hydraulic  oil source , worth a try .  use the  repetition  of a problem  to make a cure for it , very scary to  many  , personally  love a track to a problem . warm oil , pete 

 

I have some of those around, with red heat lamp bulbs, to keep various critters warm. Didn't think about putting one under my trans but that's a great idea.

 

If I remember correctly, there are dipstick type oil warmers for engines (probably mainly for diesels) that don't have a built-in block warmer. Maybe worth looking for one of those also.

 

I'm going to change my oil and filter as soon as possible also.  

 

Good info here. 

[ebinmaine 70,550]

2 minutes ago, davem1111 said:

dipstick type oil warmers for engines

 

BE EXTREMELY CAUTIOUS  using this type. 

 

Most engines do NOT have enough fluid around the heating element. (Dipstick)  

 

I do NOT advise anyone to use them unless you're absolutely sure it's OK. 

[ebinmaine 70,550]

5 minutes ago, davem1111 said:

 

I have some of those around, with red heat lamp bulbs, to keep various critters warm. Didn't think about putting one under my trans but that's a great idea.

 

Good info here. 

 

Horses are Paint covered critters. 

 

Heat lamp... neat idea...

 

 

[Bill D 2,083]

How about sticking a magnetic oil pan heater on the bottom of the transmission?  I saw several online.

[Bill D 2,083]

12 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

 

BE EXTREMELY CAUTIOUS  using this type. 

 

Most engines do NOT have enough fluid around the heating element. (Dipstick)  

 

I do NOT advise anyone to use them unless you're absolutely sure it's OK. 

Dipstick tube is plastic.  Bad idea all around.

[Handy Don 13,334]

On 12/31/2022 at 4:00 PM, Ed Kennell said:

I have only Eatons now, but some of my past Sunstrands were filled with 10w30 and they all lifted instantly.

I feel this slow cold lift is an Eaton quirk.    It is a mystery though,   why some are not slow.

I’m gonna guess that the bypass valves in the “slow” ones are allowing fluid to bypass a sluggish hydro motor longer than the “fast” ones .

(There are separate bypass valves for both forward and reverse motion--part of their job is to reduce shock on the hydro motor during rapid changes to the motion control input.)

[Handy Don 13,334]

20 minutes ago, Bill D said:

How about sticking a magnetic oil pan heater on the bottom of the transmission?  I saw several online.

This sounds safest to me as long as it is sized correctly.

[squonk 42,450]

I have 3 of these. I put 2 on my Power King (both sides of the hyd. tank for the loader ) and one slapped to the bottom of my Sunstrand on my C-160 ( when it was used for  plow duty)

 

[davem1111 2,091]

On 1/8/2025 at 4:50 PM, squonk said:

I have 3 of these. I put 2 on my Power King (both sides of the hyd. tank for the loader ) and one slapped to the bottom of my Sunstrand on my C-160 ( when it was used for  plow duty)

 

 

I picked up a couple of these at Menards - a bit pricey but well designed, magnetic so you just slap it on the trans or oil pan.

I also bought 5 quarts of 10w30 synthetic, not Mobile 1 since they didn't have that brand but it's a similarly well-known brand, forget which now.  I also found an OEM WH/Toro hydro filter that I forgot I had acquired along with a bunch of other parts.  Drained the trans, changed the filter, re-filled the trans.  Let it warm up a bit (and I think it was maybe around 30*, not teens or single digits) and it still seems to be displaying the same behavior. Hard to get it to move forward/backward for a while, and the lift doesn't work until I've moved the tractor forward and backward quite a bit, and it "quivers" then drops back down.

 

Figuring at this point I'm going to have to swap the pump or the whole trans. I have a total of 4 Eaton 1100's on premise right now - this one, a "spare", and two other tractors that could end up being donors if necessary.  We're headed for single digits and maybe negative temps really soon so I probably won't be messing with it for a while, unless we get significantly more snow.

[pfrederi 18,314]

I have 1 Eaton Hydro, she was retired from winter duty as it took her a while to decide she would lift the snowblower to move out of the shop to warm up.  ( not really quick in the summer on the mower deck but less of an issue) Switched to mobile 1 as recommended here no change.  All my snow horses are Sunstrands running ATF.  if the engines will run the hydro will work right away and the lifts work immediately...

[Handy Don 13,334]

In the Eatons, the charge pump circuit and the motion pump/motor circuit are mostly separate. The charge pump does “make up” fluid into the low pressure intake side of the motion pump that leaks past either the pump or the motor--a certain amount of this internal type of leakage is a normal in hydraulics.

That separateness makes it difficult to understand how BOTH the motion and lift are inoperable, or slow to operate, in cold weather. It has to be a combination of things.

 

If oil wasn’t flowing at all, either pump would heat up quickly from friction and, presumably, restore the flow or else complain as it destroyed itself.

If the rings in the lift cylinder are worn and stiff from cold, that might let fluid pass the piston preventing lifting power.

If the motion circuit check valves are both stuck open, that would prevent any motion (if only one is stuck, the tractor would move in one direction only).

If the motion pump is excessively worn, it might not be able to overcome the resistance of viscous oil, but 10W30 would have to be well below 0º F to become viscous.

If the motion motor is excessively worn, it might resist moving as too much fluid leaks past it.

 

The troubleshooting guide starts with confirming the drive input is turning and the linkages are all working properly.

Edited January 14 by Handy Don

[cleat 6,945]

My 520HC is the only one I have with a bit of a lift delay.

The coldest it gets though is around 6 degrees C as that what my shop thermostat is set at when I am not using it.

Synthetic oil helped a bit.

However, motion of the tractor is immediate, only the lift is affected.

 

 

[Ed Kennell 40,398]

Two of my Eaton 1100s will move and lift quickly and one will not for 5 -8 minutes depending on the temp.   Wheel Horse does recommend a warm up before usage to prevent damage to the transmission.

[Handy Don 13,334]

6 minutes ago, Ed Kennell said:

Two of my Eaton 1100s will move and lift quickly and one will not for 5 -8 minutes depending on the temp.   Wheel Horse does recommend a warm up before usage to prevent damage to the transmission.

I did read this. Since it’s a variable pump and a fixed motor, when in neutral, there is almost no fluid passing through the pump and the pump balls are rotating but not being pushed in and out by the eccentric. Perhaps the pump’s internals expand at different rates and don’t mesh snugly until reaching a certain temperature--and this could be a combination of temperature and wear? While not causing motion, the pump could warm the fluid within it but as soon as cold fluid from the sump enters, it’d cool down again until all the fluid was sufficiently warm.

 

We have two Eatons but only one gets used in the cold. By the time the operator is settled and ready to go, the tractor is too. Tractor has less than 300 hours and has Mobil One 10W30.