Hydro Transmissions and Cold Weather

[rmaynard 15,506]

My 1996 416-H with an Eaton 1100 transmission, has always performed well in all types of weather. Some people complain about slow response in cold weather. So I just wanted to give you my observations during this cold spell. The tractor lives outside, under a cover. On December 23, the temperature dropped to 2 degrees (f) overnight here in Maryland. We did not have any snow, so I decided that morning to move the tractor to allow for more guests coming the next day. 

Starting the engine at 2 degrees was slow. The engine turned over slowly (10w30 oil) but eventually started. As soon as the engine smoothed, I lifted the blade and engaged the hydro. There was no hesitation. The blade lifted quickly, and forward motion was like summer time. I use 10w30 fully synthetic oil in the hydro.

 

I'm curious about others and how their experiences were during this brutal cold weather.

[ebinmaine 67,560]

I found that both of the K 341 engines I have reeeeally like to warm up for 3 to 5 minutes before much movement.

One Automatic. One manual.

I don't know what oil was in my 1975 Automatic when I got the tractor.

It was installed around 2012 by a former Wheel Horse dealer who was likely following specs so I assume it may be straight 30 oil?

 

If I tried to start that tractor on a cold day and then engage the transmission it would nearly kill the engine which was at half throttle or so warming up.

I got in the habit of letting the engine come to life and get warmed up for a good strong 5 minutes before I even tried to move the tractor or lift.

 

The system is empty now for the restoration so I will likely put a 10w30 of some sort in the hydro system and see how that goes.

 

 

[WHX?? 48,827]

Going the other way on this Bob with 520s. 

Denny always starts right up if you let the electric fuel pump work abit first. Instant motion but no blower lift until the tranny starts it's "whine" and the charge pump takes off. Same with the deuce but longer wait time for the whine and the whine is much louder. 2 deg. Here and takes at least 3 minutes. Charge pump kicks in can actually snub the motor out even at 1/4 throttle. Feathering the choke is always required till warmed up.

Mob 1 syn 10-30 in all my 1100s and Onans.  

Outside under lean to and always on batt tenders so turning over never a problem.

Deuce is going to get an electric fuel pump. Best thing since sliced bread. Even with a check valve getting ⛽️ up the carb an issue. 

 

Might add that never any hesitation above 32 or so. Thinking about 5w-30? These are strictly snow tractors. 

Edited December 30, 2022 by WHX??

[squonk 41,137]

I don't have 300 tractors  so everything sits in the garage without the heat on unless I'm planning on working out there the next day. 30W Rotella in the engines and 10W-40 Mobil 1 in the C-160 Sunstrand, I engage the hydro after the engine warms up a couple of minutes and let the trans pully turn a couple more minutes before moving the tractor. When I had my C-145 and 520H Same 30W in the engines and 10/30 in the Eatons. Hydraulic lift worked right off the bat with both of them but I let them warm up just the same.

[rmaynard 15,506]

I might add that I too keep battery tenders on everything. Thinking about an electric fuel pump. Another thing is that this summer I replaced the original Onan carburetor with a Chinese knock-off. The Onan was erratic. It would spit and sputter, stop working, flood out if I hit a snow bank or tree too hard. The new Chinese carb has worked flawlessly. 

[Horse Newbie 7,071]

I replaced the Onan carb with a Chinese carb on my 1994 520H… mine works great too… maybe I got lucky…

Edited December 30, 2022 by Horse Newbie

[Handy Don 12,233]

1 minute ago, Horse Newbie said:

I replaced the Onan carb with a Chinese carb on my 1994 520H… mine works great too… maybe I got lucky…

In my experience, the odds are favoring success. Four aftermarket carbs (6, 10, and 12 HP + one chainsaw); three immediate successes and one just fine after it got a cleaning.

[SylvanLakeWH 25,595]

C 105 manual fired up at 2 degrees but sluggish. I use an inline marine bulb. 30 weight Rotella. Few minutes to warm up. Good to go.

 

My E 141s run perfectly regardless of temp... no warm up... 

 

[WHX?? 48,827]

4 hours ago, squonk said:

I don't have 300 tractors 

Who's fault is that? Sounds like a personal problem... 

 

4 hours ago, rmaynard said:

Thinking about an electric fuel pump. 

You won't regret it Bob and that's coming from a hard core orginalist. I thought the check valve thing would work but didn’t for me. Perhaps if the check was located back by the tank? 

I don't know what pump @dclarkeused when he built this tractor but knowing him it's a good one. 

When you turn the key to run you can hear it clicking. When it changes pitch you know it's working against the float inlet and have gas to the carb. 

I also like to run GT batteries in the larger 3- 400 CCA size in winter workers if one can find them. Standard, but more economical, ones are only 230 CCA. 

5 hours ago, squonk said:

 engage the hydro after the engine warms up a couple of minutes 

Wished the 4/500 series had that feature. 

 

 

[ebinmaine 67,560]

4 minutes ago, WHX?? said:

what pump

Facet makes one that is known to be dependable

[squonk 41,137]

Napa 610-1051 or equivalent

 

[rjg854 11,377]

Doesn't matter which season it is, summer or winter, l aways let the tractors warm up before putting them to work. Even my truck gets run a bit before just going.

[Achto 27,597]

Had my C145 auto out last week in -10 weather. It was in the garage which felt colder than it was out side. 30wt Rotella in the engine 10w 30 Mobil 1 in the tranny. Engine turned over a little hard, but fired up after a few seconds of cranking. Engaged the hydro pump and let it spin for about a minute. Forward movement was slow, lift was very slow for about 5 min. 

 

Any temps above 10 degrees the tractor acts as if it is 70 degrees out. 

[953 nut 55,283]

We seldom have more than a couple single digit degree days followed by a warmup and my shop remains around 40 degrees so no problem starting the 420-C or having the trans work immediately. Past couple of days have been over 55 and the shop was 50 degrees this afternoon. 

[WHX?? 48,827]

3 hours ago, Achto said:

 It was in the garage which felt colder than it was out side. 30wt Rotella in the engine 10w 30 Mobil 1 in the tranny

Funny you should mention that Dan... my warehouse is always 10 degrees above what it is outside ... it varies but the tractors always start better when inside. Your fault I don't have enough room to.keep them all inside ... 

1 hour ago, 953 nut said:

We seldom have more than a couple single digit degree days 

 

This went on for a week here once Richard... I try to forget the year...  0w-20?!?!

Edited December 31, 2022 by WHX??

[WHX?? 48,827]

3 hours ago, rjg854 said:

Doesn't matter which season it is, summer or winter, l aways let the tractors warm up before putting them to work. Even my truck gets run a bit before just going.

We had this discussion once Randy tho ... best to get them out and working other than  letting them idle. Working them gets oil Temps  up faster boiling off condensate? 

Good thread @rmaynard. 

[Blasterdad 2,692]

From the manual, C series Sundstrand Auto. Cold weather.

Start engine, let run at full throttle for 2 mins.

Engage transmission, for temps 0-30 deg f let run in neutral for 5 mins.

For temps below 0 deg f let run for 10 mins before attempting to set unit in motion. Failure to do so may result in extensive internal transmission damage.

Most of my tractors are C series, I don't set a stopwatch or egg timer I just go by "ear".

I'll let the engine warm up for a while, engage the trans until I can hear / feel it not putting a load on the engine, usually 5 mins is more than enough.

I let my Auto's warm up in the summer too. 

[Ed Kennell 38,200]

I have four tractors with Eaton 1100s....two 520s, a 312, and a 417.      The warm up times required for the lifts vary from zero to five minutes. 

  I couldn't find it, but I have seen a service bulletin warning that Eaton 1100s must be warmed up for 10 minutes to prevent damage.

I use Valvoline 10w30 in all my engines and transmissions.

I used marine squeeze bulbs on my tractors for instant starts, but have been replacing them with electric fuel pumps with good success. The electrics simply cure all the slow starting problems caused by the leaky mechanical pumps that tend to lose prime with the under seat tanks. 

Sorry, I use E10 fuel in all my engines , Kohler, Onan, Ford, Dodge, Mercury outboards  and Homelite and Stihl two strokes with no issues.

I do use Sea Foam if I suspect a fuel system is contaminated and for long term storage I run a cocktail of gas, 2 stroke oil, and marine grade Sta-Bil  through the engine.

.To prevent condensation, do not start an engine unless you intend to work it.   Probably better to just pull the plug wires and crank it over to distribute the oil.

                  Just my dimes worth, but it works for me.

 

[nylyon-(Admin) 7,289]

Since the day it was new, my ‘94 416 needs to warm up for 2 minutes or so when cold before the lift will even think of working.

[rmaynard 15,506]

24 minutes ago, nylyon said:

Since the day it was new, my ‘94 416 needs to warm up for 2 minutes or so when cold before the lift will even think of working.

What are you running in the transmission? I use 10W30 Walmart brand synthetic. I also use genuine Toro/Wheel Horse hydro filters. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't know if it makes any difference, but I use this 416-H only for pushing and pulling. It is used in the summer for pushing dirt and gravel, and when not pushing, it's pulling carts or dragging brush. In the winter it's job is pushing snow. I don't know if using the lift year-round has anything to do with it's performance in the cold, but it never hesitates. I would be curious to see if an oil change to the cheap Walmart stuff would make a difference.

Edited December 31, 2022 by rmaynard

[nylyon-(Admin) 7,289]

It is over due for a change, and I doubt that I have synthetic in there now.  In the spring I will do some serious maintenance on it.  It’s really not used in the winter, this year the 416-8 has the plow.

[rmaynard 15,506]

One thing I've noticed is that if I leave the plow up when I shut down the tractor, it will eventually go down. So something is not holding completely. 

[ebinmaine 67,560]

14 minutes ago, rmaynard said:

One thing I've noticed is that if I leave the plow up when I shut down the tractor, it will eventually go down. So something is not holding completely. 

It's not at all abnormal for a hydraulic system to relax as it sets.  Even on our newest machines there will be a circuit or two that loses position over time when not used. 

 

[Ed Kennell 38,200]

33 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

It's not at all abnormal

                 I always lower my implements after parking, but the few times I forgot, they always lowered themselves with time.

[rmaynard 15,506]

I guess that I shouldn't compare the lift mechanism on a Wheel Horse to a JLG man lift. They will stay up and extended as long as you don't touch the controls.