Snowblower bogging down

[Ed Kennell 38,049]

removed bad link

 

Edited December 30, 2022 by Ed Kennell

[8ntruck 6,993]

Duplicate post.

Edited December 30, 2022 by 8ntruck

[8ntruck 6,993]

Duplicate post.

Edited December 30, 2022 by 8ntruck

[8ntruck 6,993]

1 hour ago, Joe 77 B100 said:

It is all awesome as I have recently wanted to learn how to not only keep them running but also repair and restore.  Thanks for your help. 

Yup.  As a group, the forum members have probably broken just about everything that can be broken on a Wheel Horse.  As a group, we know how to fix whatever is broken, and, even better, we are willing to share that knowledge.

[oliver2-44 9,714]

@Joe 77 B100 Your PTO clutch disk looks good and as you noted it has no key way and is held by the 4 bolts. Your PTO bell also looks good. So we still need to figure out why your PTO was not turning and your engine running fine. You noted you’ve adjusted the PTO rod trunnion to the point that it was well engaged. 
 

Looking at the other end so to speak, since you have the belt off the snow blower can you turn the blower drive pulley by hand?  You might try it with the blower raised and then with it lowered just in case some miss alignment is binding it. 
 

Edit: Rereading your descriptions it sure seems like the PTO is the issue. Just grasping, but maybe the linkage is not putting enough pressure when it is under load, but enough when blower is not under load. 

Edited December 30, 2022 by oliver2-44

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,037]

The outer pto thrust bearing is held in position by a retaining ring on the stub shaft. That ring can pop out of the groove in the stub shaft so when the pto is applied the stub shaft gets pushed into the outer bearing and no pressure on the pto clutch.

 

Retaining rings are punched out when made so one side of the ring has rounded edges and the other sharp or square edges.

In this application the sharp edges of the outer retaining ring need to be facing away from the bearing. That way the ring's sharp edge matches the sharp corners of the groove in the stub shaft for a better fit.

 

Early stub shafts had one retaining ring on the outside of the pto and a bunch of parts inside the pto to push the pto out when released.

Later models eliminated the inner parts and have a second groove in the stub shaft so the thrust bearing has a retaining ring on both sides of the bearing. Now the pto linkage pulls the pto out when released.

If replacing the stub shaft get the newer design and two new retaining rings.

[peter lena 8,589]

@Joe 77 B100  thanks for the reply , most of  us on this site have many years in this , just the opposite of your set up , nothing implied or derogatory against you .  but just a picture or description , instantly  puts us there  in something we have done , and rebuilt . repetitive  failures , is something I  look at as an opportunity , to detail track back to start and reason . my instant thought is  how to make this issue  , go away , and make it  very reliable . why not ?  you are right there . that's only me  . have my original horse now over 40 years ,  IF  A QUICK FIX , HELPS YOU OUT , GIVES YOU INSIGHT / CONFIDENCE , BUILD OFF OF THAT . you can improve it the next time it fails , always looking at better set up , pete

[Joe 77 B100 84]

15 hours ago, Ed Kennell said:

file:///C:/Users/ED/Downloads/Tractor%201974%20B%20&amp%3B%20C%20Auto%20IPL%20%23803951.pdf

 

That is a link to your computer which we cannot open. 

[Joe 77 B100 84]

13 hours ago, oliver2-44 said:

@Joe 77 B100 Your PTO clutch disk looks good and as you noted it has no key way and is held by the 4 bolts. Your PTO bell also looks good. So we still need to figure out why your PTO was not turning and your engine running fine. You noted you’ve adjusted the PTO rod trunnion to the point that it was well engaged. 
 

Looking at the other end so to speak, since you have the belt off the snow blower can you turn the blower drive pulley by hand?  You might try it with the blower raised and then with it lowered just in case some miss alignment is binding it. 
 

Edit: Rereading your descriptions it sure seems like the PTO is the issue. Just grasping, but maybe the linkage is not putting enough pressure when it is under load, but enough when blower is not under load. 

I got it all put back together and will test it out at the next snowfall. 

Since you kind mentioned it, I have noted that the belt that drives the blower is not aligned correctly.  It is slightly askew in its run across all of the many pulleys it must run because #6 in the illustration below has been fixed by someone who wasn't able to get #10 and #14 perfectly aligned correctly.  It isn't really bad, but the PTO pulley, #10, #14 and #16 aren't perfectly aligned. 

But, I think greasing up the bell bearings, cleaning up the bell facing and cleaning/burring up the clutch face likely fixed my issue.  I will work on the proper trunnion setting.

[Joe 77 B100 84]

4 hours ago, gwest_ca said:

The outer pto thrust bearing (#11?) is held in position by a retaining ring on the stub shaft (#12 also called the PTO shaft?). That ring can pop out of the groove in the stub shaft so when the pto is applied the stub shaft gets pushed into the outer bearing and no pressure on the pto clutch.  I have read and reread that and now I think I know what you are getting at. I need to look closely at the PTO shaft (#12) when I disassemble it again and make sure the ring is on the PTO shaft.  I checked all the rings in the bell holding the bearings in but I don't remember seeing one on the PTO shaft which doesn't come off when you disassemble the bell.

 

Retaining rings are punched out when made so one side of the ring has rounded edges and the other sharp or square edges.

In this application the sharp edges of the outer retaining ring need to be facing away from the bearing. That way the ring's sharp edge matches the sharp corners of the groove in the stub shaft for a better fit.

 

Early stub shafts had one retaining ring on the outside of the pto and a bunch of parts inside the pto to push to pto out when released.

Later models eliminated the inner parts and have a second groove in the stub shaft so the thrust bearing has a retaining ring on both sides of the bearing. Now the pto linkage pulls the pto out when released.

If replacing the stub shaft get the newer design and two new retaining rings.

Thanks.  You seem to REALLY know what you are talking about but I am having a hard time following without pics or a reference.  Can you use the image below to add a color or number reference?  I think what you are saying is that I need to assure that the red or yellow retaining ring is sitting the right way.  They both seem to be those snap rings that require a special needle-node plier to take off/put on.

I need to check that both #9 and #11 are not flipped the wrong way?  Is that what you are saying?

 

Edited December 30, 2022 by Joe 77 B100

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,037]

If #11 came out of the groove in the shaft it would allow the shaft to slide into the inner bearing race.

Item #9 is the retainer that keeps the thrust bearing in the pto housing and you can see it.

 

Turn the stub shaft so you can view the eye-ends of the #11 ring. You will be able to see if the ring is still in it's groove. If it is in the groove this is not the cause of the slipping.

If the groove can not be seen the shaft is being pushed into bearing and that is why you can not get the required pto pressure.

Here is the later shaft so you can see the difference. Two item 34's - one each side of the bearing.

https://www.partstree.com/models/31-12k801-312-8-toro-garden-tractor-1990/pto-clutch-and-control-47/

The parts beyond item #1 in your illustration can be eliminated if you use the newer shaft.

[peter lena 8,589]

@Joe 77 B100   https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=wheel+horse+pto+clutch+adjustment&qpvt=wheel+horse+pto+clutch+adjustment&form=IGRE&first=1&tsc=ImageHoverTitle   lots of variations here , ought to help . pete

[8ntruck 6,993]

8 hours ago, gwest_ca said:

If #11 came out of the groove in the shaft it would allow the shaft to slide into the inner bearing race.

Item #9 is the retainer that keeps the thrust bearing in the pto housing and you can see it.

 

Turn the stub shaft so you can view the eye-ends of the #11 ring. You will be able to see if the ring is still in it's groove. If it is in the groove this is not the cause of the slipping.

If the groove can not be seen the shaft is being pushed into bearing and that is why you can not get the required pto pressure.

Here is the later shaft so you can see the difference. Two item 34's - one each side of the bearing.

https://www.partstree.com/models/31-12k801-312-8-toro-garden-tractor-1990/pto-clutch-and-control-47/

The parts beyond item #1 in your illustration can be eliminated if you use the newer shaft.

Yup.  This is what I was trying to describe in my post.  Take a look at the spiral pin #14 too.  That is what transmits the force from the arch, #13, to the stub shaft, #12, to the clutch bell.

[Mark siebenaler 87]

Wish  there was a simplified post on adjustment of PTO clutch.  .(anyone)

[peter lena 8,589]

@Joe 77 B100  how easily do your related drive belt pulleys move ?  the combination of  pulleys that  struggle to spin easily will really cut down on a idler set up , every rotational  belt driven area ,and related  movement point must be free to move , any hold up slows down belt drive speed .pete 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,037]

The pressure adjustment is trial and error.

I have one that a high pitch squeal is developed when it slips. One turn tighter and good to go.

Also have one that slipping is only noticed when the attachment slows down and the engine does not.

The pto handle takes the rod over center when the pto is applied. That tight spot is what keeps the pto engaged and the handle then goes a bit more with some authority. It almost snaps to it's resting place and if it does not the adjustment is too loose.