Winter starting help

[Joe 77 B100 84]

Its that time of year again.  I had it running in the fall but now it barely turns over.  The battery was new last year BUT  I did leave it on all summer and BUT its been on a maintainer for days now.  It makes that humming noise like the starter is trying to work but it doesn't turn over at all. 

Is a trickle maintainer much weaker than a battery charger?  I am going to go out and check the voltage now but I thought I would throw it out to everyone and see what replies I get back.

Thanks for your help folks. You haven't failed me yet. 

[pfrederi 18,334]

Best bet have battery load tested...

 

Quick check hook up multimeter what is battery voltage?? then try cranking if voltage drops to 9 or below. bad or weak battery...

[lynnmor 7,567]

Many maintainers are of little value.  I use a Battery Tender brand battery charger that has true charging capabilities.  I rotate the chargers between the 9 seasonal batteries leaving them on each for about 3 days per month.

[RED-Z06 2,479]

Some maintainers dont put out 1/4 amp hardly while others put out enough to eventually hurt a battery, i use a NOCO Genius 1, 1 amp maintainer..its small enough to charge the little powersports and generator batteries, or maintain a 78series car battery.

 

That said...if a battery freezes, it doesn't matter what charger is on it...the colder it gets the less power the battery has.  A 340ca battery might hsve 280@32⁰...and if its a year old or has sulfidization on the plates, that number can dup under 150amps, and a cold engine needs more power to crank over.

 

Put a 8 or 10 amp on it for an hour or 2...if it wont kick off its probably just bad...we had 1 cold snap in Florida and i had 3 batteries go bad overnight

Edited December 19, 2022 by RED-Z06

[Joe 77 B100 84]

20 minutes ago, pfrederi said:

Best bet have battery load tested...

 

Quick check hook up multimeter what is battery voltage?? then try cranking if voltage drops to 9 or below. bad or weak battery...

I didn't know about the "drops below 9" thing.  Both my John Deere 110 and the Wheel Horse B100 tested at 14v as they sit on the tester.  I will go check and see what they both drop to when I try and start them.  Thanks.

[Joe 77 B100 84]

5 minutes ago, RED-Z06 said:

Some maintainers dont put out 1/4 amp hardly while others put out enough to eventually hurt a battery, i use a NOCO Genius 1, 1 amp maintainer..its small enough to charge the little powersports and generator batteries, or maintain a 78series car battery.

 

That said...if a battery freezes, it doesn't matter what charger is on it...the colder it gets the less power the battery has.  A 340ca battery might hsve 280@32⁰...and if its a year old or has sulfidization on the plates, that number can dup under 150amps, and a cold engine needs more power to crank over.

 

Put a 8 or 10 amp on it for an hour or 2...if it wont kick off its probably just bad...we had 1 cold snap in Florida and i had 3 batteries go bad overnight

Its cold and supposed to get colder AND snow 4" so I have to get this figured out before the snow falls. 

When you say "put an 8 or 10amp on it", does that mean a regular batter charger rather than the maintainers I have been using.  I haven't ever noted that the charger has amp readings on it.  Just the 6v or 12v.  Both of my maintainers are cheap, Menards brand maintainers.

Clearly, not too familiar with batteries and such. 

[Joe 77 B100 84]

26 minutes ago, pfrederi said:

Best bet have battery load tested...

 

Quick check hook up multimeter what is battery voltage?? then try cranking if voltage drops to 9 or below. bad or weak battery...

I just thought I would also ask: is there a way to tell if they are "bad" or just "weak" and does the action I take or the solution differ?  Just buy new ones either way to be safe?

[RED-Z06 2,479]

3 minutes ago, Joe 77 B100 said:

Its cold and supposed to get colder AND snow 4" so I have to get this figured out before the snow falls. 

When you say "put an 8 or 10amp on it", does that mean a regular batter charger rather than the maintainers I have been using.  I haven't ever noted that the charger has amp readings on it.  Just the 6v or 12v.  Both of my maintainers are cheap, Menards brand maintainers.

Clearly, not too familiar with batteries and such. 

Every charger should have an amp output rating, smart chargers will generally start at their peak output and step down to a low rate as the battery charges up. My charger let its smoke out yesterday so i ordered another cheap one..no sense spending alot, im hard on chargers. But as you see, its rated at 10amps

[pfrederi 18,334]

If the battery has been on a tickle charger for over 24 hours it  should have enou0gh charge to start  or at least crank the engine,  14 v is about right for a maintainer trickle charger.

 

 

[Pullstart 64,576]

Most auto parts stores can load test the battery for free in hopes to sell another battery.  My local store even charges it for a few hours for you before load testing it.

[lynnmor 7,567]

1 minute ago, Pullstart said:

Most auto parts stores can load test the battery for free in hopes to sell another battery.  My local store even charges it for a few hours for you before load testing it.

They should be fully charged to get a load test.  It usually takes at least 10 hours to get a full charge.

[Pullstart 64,576]

12 minutes ago, lynnmor said:

They should be fully charged to get a load test.  It usually takes at least 10 hours to get a full charge.

I’m sure they’ll keep it as long as it needs to get full 

[Joe 77 B100 84]

The JD 110 dipped to about 11 when I tried to start it but, again, just murmurred but didn't turn over.

The WH B100 dipped down to like 5 when I tried to start it. 

 

So, here is my question:

• Does each tractor I have need a different battery with different specs?  If so, how do I find that information for each engine? 
• I know I need 12V and the CA should be high (300+) but, other than that, does it need to be a specific batter for each small, garden tractor I have?  I kind of assumed the JD with 8hp and the WH with 10hp would use the same battery.

[pfrederi 18,334]

300 CCa is adequate in a Garden tractor battery.  Only two styles usually with an L or R in   the model Number.  (whch side eh terminals are on)  just get one that looks like your existing battery.

[squonk 42,570]

[Handy Don 13,340]

14 minutes ago, Joe 77 B100 said:

• Does each tractor I have need a different battery with different specs?  If so, how do I find that information for each engine? 
• I know I need 12V and the CA should be high (300+) but, other than that, does it need to be a specific batter for each small, garden tractor I have?  I kind of assumed the JD with 8hp and the WH with 10hp would use the same battery.

So two answers ( )

- The battery spec is in the Owner's Manual (OM) for each tractor. Search the "files" on this site if you don't already have them.

- Most WH electric start tractors use the standard "U1" (or U1L)  garden tractor battery which is available with different levels of CCA. Some models had room for physically larger batteries. The Lawn Ranger (6hp), 854 (8hp), and 18hp Onan in our stable all use the same battery.

[RED-Z06 2,479]

25 minutes ago, Joe 77 B100 said:

The JD 110 dipped to about 11 when I tried to start it but, again, just murmurred but didn't turn over.

The WH B100 dipped down to like 5 when I tried to start it. 

 

So, here is my question:

• Does each tractor I have need a different battery with different specs?  If so, how do I find that information for each engine? 
• I know I need 12V and the CA should be high (300+) but, other than that, does it need to be a specific batter for each small, garden tractor I have?  I kind of assumed the JD with 8hp and the WH with 10hp would use the same battery.

Are you sure the starter bendix isnt just stuck?

[953 nut 57,963]

It is reasonable to blame the battery for but you need to take a look at your battery cables and grounds too. A little corrosion can prevent a good battery from giving good results.

3 hours ago, Pullstart said:

Most auto parts stores can load test the battery for free in hopes to sell another battery.  My local store even charges it for a few hours for you before load testing it.

 

[Joe 77 B100 84]

17 hours ago, RED-Z06 said:

Are you sure the starter bendix isnt just stuck?

Nope.  But, I guess I better check what that sounds like and how to fix it.  Both machines are "whirring" like something is spinning but not turning over.  Any tutorials you can suggest?

[Joe 77 B100 84]

14 hours ago, 953 nut said:

It is reasonable to blame the battery for but you need to take a look at your battery cables and grounds too. A little corrosion can prevent a good battery from giving good results.

 

Ahhh yes.  Grounds.  I learned that a few years back.  I will try and get it in the shop to give it the once over. 

[rjg854 11,881]

What model tractor are we talking about here?  I might have missed that.

 

 oops I see it now.

 

Never mind 

Edited December 20, 2022 by rjg854
add

[lynnmor 7,567]

4 minutes ago, Joe 77 B100 said:

Nope.  But, I guess I better check what that sounds like and how to fix it.  Both machines are "whirring" like something is spinning but not turning over.  Any tutorials you can suggest?

Perfect description of a starter drive (Bendix) problem.

[Joe 77 B100 84]

1 minute ago, rjg854 said:

What model tractor are we talking about here?  I might have missed that.

77 B100 Wheel Horse and a round fender JD 110.  Same thing.  They sort of put-put-put but with little energy and no real catch of the motor.

[Joe 77 B100 84]

3 minutes ago, lynnmor said:

Perfect description of a starter drive (Bendix) problem.

Well, I looked up some videos and I don't think that is it.  I am going to make a video so you can hear it.  I will get that loaded soon.  Two days and counting til the snow storm.

[pfrederi 18,334]

Have you tried jump starting them off your car???