KOHLER COMMAND 14 BURNING OIL

[lynnmor 7,471]

Analysis paralysis, pop the head and see the real problem.

[jeff lary 172]

  No paralysis here no sir not in the least, from what I have read if it leaks down 10% or more you have issues. Either intake or exhaust valves or rings / head gasket or cylinder wall tolerances. Depending on how much the cylinder leaks down and where the air escapes from. So, if you input 100# and you leak down gauge shows 90# you have a 10% pressure loss. When I input 100# the gauge dropped to 40# so yea a 60% loss. She is all back together I did not remove the head I am going to take it to someone who has done a lot of these and will surely have better luck than I would. If it needs parts and it, will, he will have a vendor. If it needs machine work, he will know a good shop to take it to. If I had someone here with me to answer questions as I went along, I would likely have continued. As I have never done anything inside a 4 -stroke I do not feel comfortable tearing it down by myself. I could make up some foolishness but that what I am thinking right now.

 

  As for photos on other sites there is an attachment icon, and I can use that to find my folder and choose a photo. The issue is not photo size it is that I cannot " browse" my folders to get to the one I want to. I do remember a few years back I was doing something and wanted to be able to post photos and ask questions. It turned out that I could only post 3-4 photos then I had to become a supporter at $35.00 to post more. I did pay and did post a few more I think but nothing extravagant. I figured today I would take photos as I went along and then post, if need be, to show what was up and ask questions if I had to. Then when I could not find the photos, I wanted. Then I remembered last time...

[RED-Z06 2,379]

Leakdown test gives info but its not always useful.  Air out the muffler means exhaust valve issue, out the intake means intake valve issue.

 

Out the crankcase...rings/piston or a cracked block, or head gasket...it just means that cylinder pressure isnt staying in the combustion chamber but doesnt narrow down why.

[jeff lary 172]

yes, I agree 100 percent, yes she has pretty serious issues someplace it would go through about 5-10 oz's (just guessing) in 3 hours mowing time.

Edited December 20, 2022 by jeff lary

[lynnmor 7,471]

34 minutes ago, RED-Z06 said:

Leakdown test gives info but its not always useful.  Air out the muffler means exhaust valve issue, out the intake means intake valve issue.

 

Out the crankcase...rings/piston or a cracked block, or head gasket...it just means that cylinder pressure isnt staying in the combustion chamber but doesnt narrow down why.

 

And regardless, the thing is using a lot of oil so wasting time guessing the cause, simply pop the head and know.

[Wild Bill 633 862]

2 hours ago, RED-Z06 said:

Leakdown test gives info but its not always useful.

I respectfully disagree. A leak down tester is the most useful device to determine engine condition. That is why engine builders prefer to use a leak down tester over a compression gauge.

Edited December 20, 2022 by Wild Bill 633

[RED-Z06 2,379]

4 minutes ago, Wild Bill 633 said:

Then why do engine builders prefer to use a leak down tester over a compression gauge? I respectfully disagree.

To what end?  What can a leakdown test tell you that you can fix without pulling the head?  Its using oil...a leakdown test is going to be inconclusive every time on the cause of leakdown when its not valves..because it doesn't matter, head's coming off either way.

 

Lets say it blows 10% leakdown and its using alot of oil...what is your next move?

[RED-Z06 2,379]

1 hour ago, Wild Bill 633 said:

I respectfully disagree. A leak down tester is the most useful device to determine engine condition. That is why engine builders prefer to use a leak down tester over a compression gauge.

Nice Edit.

 

If you have a 4cyl engine with a misfire, you can check spark at each hole...if its there, you can useca noid light to check injection pulse, you can then do a compression test...lets say its 155, 160, 100, 155.  So you know #3 is hurt, either rings/piston/cylinder or one of the valves/seats is hurt.

 

So, you leakdown test cylinder 3 and nothing comes out of the intake or exhaust but you have 40% leakdown and air out the oil filler, so its still either piston/ring/cylinder or head/head gasket.

 

The head still has to come off...nothing of any value was taken from the leakdown test as a diagnostic tool, because in the end the head is coming off.

 

What a leakdown tester is useful for, if you have an engine that you need to address condition, without pulling the engine apart...as a "is it hurt or not" deal...then a leakdown test can tell you, as an engine sits, how well its sealing in a ststic state.  In all the years I worked in a volume shop rebuilding small engines, the leakdown tester was rarely used.  If its smoking, its coming apart no matter what.

[jeff lary 172]

I agree this will need a head off look see. I was just really unsure how to deal with the rockers and push rods. That is why I stopped. That said if I had gone deeper would this have been the right things to do;

Remove rocker arms mark their replacement positions (i.e.) PTO side vs flywheel side

Remove push rods mark them as well

Remove the head bolts a little at a time till all torque is released from each bolt

Remove head and pray for bad head gasket...

I would have absolutely gone further but I would have wanted someone here that had done this before to guide me the first time. I know I may have disappointed those that offered advice and for that I apologize. Thank you for all the responses and feel free to keep going on this if you wish I am still learning from you comments. Like I tried to explain in the beginning I was just kind of trying to feel my way through.  

Edited December 20, 2022 by jeff lary

[RED-Z06 2,379]

24 minutes ago, jeff lary said:

I agree this will need a head off look see. I was just really unsure how to deal with the rockers and push rods. That is why I stopped. That said if I had gone deeper would this have been the right things to do;

Remove rocker arms mark their replacement positions (i.e.) PTO side vs flywheel side

Remove push rods mark them as well

Remove the head bolts a little at a time till all torque is released from each bolt

Remove head and pray for bad head gasket...

I would have absolutely gone further but I would have wanted someone here that had done this before to guide me the first time. I know I may have disappointed those that offered advice and for that I apologize. Thank you for all the responses and feel free to keep going on this if you wish I am still learning from you comments. Like I tried to explain in the beginning I was just kind of trying to feel my way through.  

Yeah you can mark the rockers and push rods for position.  On head bolts on aluminum engines i back them off by hand about a half turn then run them out with the impact..its alot of threads there.  Then the head should lift off.  On assembly i dan a little anti-seize on the head bolts and run them down with a 1/4" impact to flush then follow the torque procedure with the torque wrench.

 

Here are some photos of a 1200hr command twin i rebuilt last year, it had the air filter pipe come loose after getting whacked with a tree branch and it was using about 15oz of oil an hour while mowing and would nuke a set of plugs in 3 hours.  I did new rings, both cylinders cleaned right up with a light hone,  cleaned both pistons, both rods showed no visible wear and it wasn't noisy.  Cleaned the valves up and new guide seals.  It ran perfectly and no smoke 

Edited December 21, 2022 by RED-Z06

[bds1984 1,457]

That is probably the second dirtiest Kohler engine I have ever seen!  Damn.
My 315-8 I purchased years ago had a very similar issue.  Burned a decent amount of oil, ran great, but only had 400 hours on it.  I left the engine on the frame and began to inspect/disassemble to determine the cause.  Well, the oil ring was wiped out which was strange since everything else was clean and showed no wear as everything spec'd out.  The air filter was not compromised so I sometimes wonder if the rings were defective.  Oh well.  So a light hone, new rings, gaskets, and copious amounts of flushing she is thumping along side my other Horses using very, very little fuel.  This is my only OHV horse and she sounds more like a four-wheeler than a garden tractor.  

[RED-Z06 2,379]

22 minutes ago, bds1984 said:

That is probably the second dirtiest Kohler engine I have ever seen!  Damn.
My 315-8 I purchased years ago had a very similar issue.  Burned a decent amount of oil, ran great, but only had 400 hours on it.  I left the engine on the frame and began to inspect/disassemble to determine the cause.  Well, the oil ring was wiped out which was strange since everything else was clean and showed no wear as everything spec'd out.  The air filter was not compromised so I sometimes wonder if the rings were defective.  Oh well.  So a light hone, new rings, gaskets, and copious amounts of flushing she is thumping along side my other Horses using very, very little fuel.  This is my only OHV horse and she sounds more like a four-wheeler than a garden tractor.  

The crankcase pressure had blown the upper crank seal out so it had been bleeding badly, but ill say it fired right up, i cranked it with the plugs out about 10 seconds then put the plugs in and it kicked Right over.

 

Kohler Commands are among my favorite engines from an architectural standpoint, ive seen them well over 3500 hours..still kicking 

 

[Snoopy11 5,717]

3 hours ago, Wild Bill 633 said:

I respectfully disagree. A leak down tester is the most useful device to determine engine condition. That is why engine builders prefer to use a leak down tester over a compression gauge.

 

Bill, it sounds like you have met A.C.R. ...? You know him? Good guy isn't he?

 

I can't actually remember the last time I did a compression test on a small engine (ANY small engine) as opposed to a leakdown test. There may be ways around ACR... which is all fine and good... but I ALWAYS revert to a leakdown test... that tells me everything I need to know as an engine builder thankya very much.

 

Leakdown tests take a lot of other variables out of the equation as well... so... yes Bill you are spot on.

 

I'll quote from Pegasus Racing:

 

Since the compression tester relies on the engine cranking, several uncontrolled variables are introduced which can make the results less useful. A weak battery, a corroded starter cable, or a hot starter can all cause the engine to crank slower, which can affect the test results. Even air density and valve lash can affect the readings. [there are many other variables that I can mention but won't for the sake of brevity]...

 

The use of a controlled, regulated compressed air source makes a leak-down test much more consistent and repeatable. This means that a leak-down tester can be used to show when an engine is in need of a rebuild due to wear. If the percentage of leakage in an engine goes up from one test to the next (especially if all cylinders increase a similar amount), you can be reasonably confident that it is due to a loss of cylinder sealing. Depending on your budget and how much power you are willing to give up, you will probably want to rebuild the engine when leak-down reaches somewhere around 10% to 15%. Fresh engines should not leak more than about 3%. Many engine builders consider 5% to still be quite healthy.

 

Having said that, if a small engine smokes... the only thing that you need to test is your patience in taking the engine apart...

 

Don

[bds1984 1,457]

12 hours ago, RED-Z06 said:

The crankcase pressure had blown the upper crank seal out so it had been bleeding badly, but ill say it fired right up, i cranked it with the plugs out about 10 seconds then put the plugs in and it kicked Right over.

 

Kohler Commands are among my favorite engines from an architectural standpoint, ive seen them well over 3500 hours..still kicking 

 

 

The Commands are kind of growing on me; I was a little leery at first but I'll put this one up with the 18HP Vanguards I've ran the past twenty-three years.  Not as torquey as my K341 but smooth and super fuel efficient.  

[Snoopy11 5,717]

4 hours ago, bds1984 said:

super fuel efficient

Yessir... just make to consistently replace the fuel filter on an annual basis with one like Tom shows here...

 

 

Looks like a new one over here, fresh out of the Amazon bag.... better view. You want the clear style like this so you can see fuel in the filter itself.

 

 

It doesn't matter how many hours you put on the engine itself, it is worthy to replace the fuel filter every year (I do mine in the spring). Helps keep other issues at bay.

 

Don

[RED-Z06 2,379]

7 hours ago, bds1984 said:

 

The Commands are kind of growing on me; I was a little leery at first but I'll put this one up with the 18HP Vanguards I've ran the past twenty-three years.  Not as torquey as my K341 but smooth and super fuel efficient.  

They are very robust inside, the pistons hold up, great rings if you can find oem, the only black mark on the commands history was the Speed Advance Module some models used, and early head gasket failures which Kohler quickly addressed with an improved gasket design and revised torque sequence.

 

My Legacy XL has a 27hp version, unknown hours...but enough to wear a 60" deck completely out...runs great.

 

Love the old vanguards, when they made them in Japan they were world class quality.

[kpinnc 13,077]

On 12/21/2022 at 4:13 PM, RED-Z06 said:

Love the old vanguards, when they made them in Japan they were world class quality.

 

Agreed. And the horizontals (14-23HP) had ball bearings on the PTO.

[RED-Z06 2,379]

10 hours ago, kpinnc said:

 

Agreed. And the horizontals (14-23HP) had ball bearings on the PTO.

Yep, great engines.  I rebuilt one for the local VFD that ran a truck mounted pump rig and it was burning a good bit of oil..the meter stopped sometime after 4000hrs over a good 6+ years of service,  the fuel pump died on a call and they fed it ether as long as they could to finish out..a few cans. It smoked bad.  Cylinders still had visible crosshatch and pistons were in spec..i put in new rings, quick hone out, and off it went.  The cylinder liners were so hard.

 

 

New Vanguards are a joke in comparison.  It hurts to see new chinese honda clones wearing the Vanguard logo

[Sailman 1,299]

I always enjoy following these threads and learning from the "experts" here on the forum. I take in as much as I can and appreciate the "wisdom" conveyed in these threads. It confirms my choice of sticking to the old kohler K engines as definitely more in line with my "mechanical ability pay grade"!

Old buggers are much simpler and more forgiving!  

[RED-Z06 2,379]

5 minutes ago, Sailman said:

I always enjoy following these threads and learning from the "experts" here on the forum. I take in as much as I can and appreciate the "wisdom" conveyed in these threads. It confirms my choice of sticking to the old kohler K engines as definitely more in line with my "mechanical ability pay grade"!

Old buggers are much simpler and more forgiving!  

They all have their issues, commands are silky smooth, efficient, and reliable...a head gasket job can take 45 minutes to an hour.  K series were solid but, balance gears, 12v coils, points, head gaskets...were things that have to occasionally be addressed.

[Sailman 1,299]

20 minutes ago, RED-Z06 said:

They all have their issues, commands are silky smooth, efficient, and reliable...a head gasket job can take 45 minutes to an hour.  K series were solid but, balance gears, 12v coils, points, head gaskets...were things that have to occasionally be addressed.

 

I get the advantage to the commands and twins. On the K series I have dealt with everything but the balance gears and found them to be more simple than procedures described above and easier to keep running. Just the head gasket replacement on a K was easy for someone with my limited mechanic ability. Knowing ones limitations has its own value....

[jeff lary 172]

I removed the engine yesterday I will get it to the shop as soon as he has the room for it. If I could just be around someone doing it for the first time I would have had enough confidence to do the work myself the next time. In any case I am doing a few other things while the engine is off and the tractor is in the shop. I am going to replace the main drive belt and have run a new Fuel line. I assume the line there is the original so its time for new. I have the deck off and cleaned up underneath that and now ready for some sort of paint. I will do that this week I think I have some industrial urethane gray primer I will put a few coats of that on it. We used to use it before the orange top coat when painting snowplows she is some rugged stuff for sure. Checked the rear gear case oil level that is as clean as the day it was poured into it. Going to look all the wires over closely and clean the grounds and put the engine back in when completed. I will post then when I know what he found inside.