KOHLER COMMAND 14 BURNING OIL

[jeff lary 171]

 I think there are machining services available through some of the auto parts stores. I will likely go to a fellow I have heard good things about and let him do the work. Like I said I am not sure yet what I will do. I really don't like the idea of trying to retrofit some other engine under the hood.

 I will admit more power does sound good, she don't like to mow grass that is over 6 inches high. I asked a friend why he thought his Craftsman mower was like 20 hp or something. He admitted it was big power but he said when I make a wide turn and end of the lawn up in the edge of the hay field she don't skip a beat!

[RED-Z06 2,221]

Commands have an extremely hard cylinder liner, wear on the liner is almost unheard of under 2500hrs, its also not terribly common to get ring wear unless it ate dirt.  A more common failure is at the head gasket at the push rod galley, but you wont know until the head is off

[jeff lary 171]

Now don't go gettin all excited but I am charging the battery now. Tomorrow I may try to get it up into the shop and get the engine pulled. I will try to get the engine up on the table and see if I can get the head off.

 Maybe get a photo and see if you all think the gasket has failed if I cannot tell myself. The v-e-r-y little I have read says something about not reusing the head bolts after taking them out. So if that is the case I will need to go find some new bolts to replace them with I suppose. Like I said I move slowly especially on stuff I know zero about. So, what I am saying I guess is this may take some time before you hear the unmitigated horror that I am quite sure will ensue...

 

 

[RED-Z06 2,221]

2 minutes ago, jeff lary said:

Now don't go gettin all excited but I am charging the battery now. Tomorrow I may try to get it up into the shop and get the engine pulled. I will try to get the engine up on the table and see if I can get the head off.

 Maybe get a photo and see if you all think the gasket has failed if I cannot tell myself. The v-e-r-y little I have read says something about not reusing the head bolts after taking them out. So if that is the case I will need to go find some new bolts to replace them with I suppose. Like I said I move slowly especially on stuff I know zero about. So, what I am saying I guess is this may take some time before you hear the unmitigated horror that I am quite sure will ensue...

 

 

I dont believe you have to pull the engine to pull the head, its a vertical cylinder so the bolts are all on top.  Remove the muffler, carb, possibly loosen the shroud, valve cover, remove the rockers, push rods then head bolts, lift it off.

[jeff lary 171]

well I just thought it may be easier to work on up on the bench is all. If it easy to get to then I likely will try it in the tractor. The muffler makes me cringe some. It has quite a bit of a rust seized look to the bolts from what I remember. So, rocker and push rod removal you say,... Sounds scary to me ha ha. Should I start with a compression test first? If so I wonder what it should be. As far as the rockers should I check the  clearance between the rocker and the rods before removal so I can try to get them back to what they were when I put it back together ? Ya know like after I come to my senses and realize I am way over my head and all...

[lynnmor 7,307]

Start now with spraying some penetrating oil on all fasteners.  Since you are using oil, just proceed to popping the head off, you will adjust the valves to the correct setting at assembly.

[RED-Z06 2,221]

8 minutes ago, jeff lary said:

well I just thought it may be easier to work on up on the bench is all. If it easy to get to then I likely will try it in the tractor. The muffler makes me cringe some. It has quite a bit of a rust seized look to the bolts from what I remember. So, rocker and push rod removal you say,... Sounds scary to me ha ha. Should I start with a compression test first? If so I wonder what it should be. As far as the rockers should I check the  clearance between the rocker and the rods before removal so I can try to get them back to what they were when I put it back together ? Ya know like after I come to my senses and realize I am way over my head and all...

Commands are a net-lash setup with hydraulic lifters like a car, there shouldn't be any adjustment there.

[jeff lary 171]

ok I need to go back a few pages and find the post with the service manual and try to find in it where they remove the head / the procedure.

[jeff lary 171]

So at a bare minimum if I just get into it far enough to see the head gasket to see if it is blown, I will need....

 

3/8 torque wrench to put it back together 

New head bolts

RTV sealant

Head Gasket 

Valve cover Gasket or maybe just use RTV here 

 

I can get the torque wrench at Harbor Freight (maybe).

The RTV at the auto parts store.

But what about the head gasket? order it online maybe?

As for the Head bolts do they really have to be replaced? if so I assume that I can get them at an auto parts store maybe. I assume they are of a different strength than any hardware store bolt might be... See you kept after me now I am asking lots of questions...

[jeff lary 171]

On 12/16/2022 at 7:34 PM, 953 nut said:

What oil are using, 10 W 30 or straight 30 Weight? Has this problem been coming on slowly or was it a sudden change? I don't own a Command engine but I suspect it has a crankcase vent going to the engine intake manifold, is it connected?

I would suggest you do a leak-down test to locate the point of compression/oil loss. This thread may be helpful.

953 NUT

  I actually have a brand new OTC? (I think) leak down tester that I have never used. It did not come with any instructions and I have never been able to figure out how it is supposed to be used.

 

I only read a little about it on Page 23 of the service manual posted here on page 1 @ post no.14 by Pfrederi. It gives some description of what to expect depending on where and how much it leaks.

 

You mentioned the crank case vent, I have read that several times in that Manual. I don't see any picture of the crankcase vent device so I don't know if I would know it if I saw it. It looks like it is visible after the Valve cover has been removed . Do you or anyone else have any information on how I would know if it was "clean" and functioning properly?

 

[Wild Bill 633 846]

1 hour ago, jeff lary said:

You mentioned the crank case vent,

Also called the breather, which is a reed valve. Not sure where it is located on a single cylinder.

[RED-Z06 2,221]

Whats you're model and spec number, ill try to see if they used tty head bolts. Tty bolts will have a necked down area above the threads where the bolt will yield 

[jeff lary 171]

CH 14S ,,,I believe it is 14S but could be 145 if my eyes were not seeing right if I remember that correctly that number is worn away or the sticker is scratched right there.

 

SER NO. 300 530 2811

I have this recorded in a book here in the house it should be correct

[RED-Z06 2,221]

19 minutes ago, jeff lary said:

CH 14S ,,,I believe it is 14S but could be 145 if my eyes were not seeing right if I remember that correctly that number is worn away or the sticker is scratched right there.

 

SER NO. 300 530 2811

I have this recorded in a book here in the house it should be correct

The spec number would be on that worn sticker, i pulled up a Toro spec on the drop down list (Ch14-1838) and it shows the current bolt is 20 086 02-S which is not torque to yield and head gasket is 12 041 08-S.

 

Without your specific spec number i can't say with 100% certainty.

[jeff lary 171]

like I said 14S I believe. what does " not torque to yield" mean. and the Head gasket ,.. is that the replacement number maybe? I am watching a video on Youtube by I SAVE OLD TRACTORS. he is showing some of the things I will need to know. I am a very visual learner.

[Snoopy11 5,714]

4 hours ago, jeff lary said:

The v-e-r-y little I have read says something about not reusing the head bolts after taking them out. So if that is the case I will need to go find some new bolts to replace them with I suppose

Be very careful when removing them. If your gasket is blown, normally the bolts are difficult to get out. I do not recommend using any power tools for this.

 

10 minutes ago, jeff lary said:

what does " not torque to yield" mean

TTY means that the first time a bolt is installed, it is torqued to the point where if the bolt is removed, it cannot be reused. Upon first installation, the bolt was stretched, and will not spring back.

 

In your case, the type of bolts that are in your engine can be reused more than once IF you remove the head bolts and they aren't in horrible shape. Best to soak them in some sort of rust penetrant and chase the threads just for good measure.
 

Whatever bolts you put back in, I recommend lubricating them with ARP fastener assembly lubricant.

 

Don

[jeff lary 171]

Thank you I will be careful no inch impacts here!  I will just use a 3/8 ratchet. I am done for the night I will check in tomorrow

 

[RED-Z06 2,221]

22 minutes ago, jeff lary said:

like I said 14S I believe. what does " not torque to yield" mean. and the Head gasket ,.. is that the replacement number maybe? I am watching a video on Youtube by I SAVE OLD TRACTORS. he is showing some of the things I will need to know. I am a very visual learner.

Normally a bolt tightens down and clamps 2 or more parts together and the friction of the head onto a washer and the friction of the threads, it puts stress on the bolt...this is what provides the clamping power, so you torque to x foot pounds.  TTY  is torque to yield, TTY bolts are designed to be torqued to X foot pounds, then usually a final movement such as "torque to 90ft/lbs then 90⁰.  This forces the thinned area of the bolt to stretch permanently and gives a more consistent clamping force.  Once the bolt  yields, it will never take torque again, it will usually snap off because it cant get to the torque again.

[Snoopy11 5,714]

@jeff lary... Considering TYPE of cylinder head bolts your engine has based on my research on your engine model.... your cylinder head bolts can be reused.

 

CONDITION is another thing.

 

CONDITIONALLY... you'll know when you remove them if you can reuse them or not...

 

In other words, if they come out looking like Methuselah's momma... you'll want to replace them.

 

Don't forget, you can use both rust penetrant and heat to remove them if you need.

 

They SHOULD come out though without a problem.

 

Don

Edited December 20, 2022 by Snoopy11

[Wild Bill 633 846]

Cost of new cylinder head bolts (5) @ $1.82 each = $9.10. Not worth my time to reuse old ones.

[jeff lary 171]

I have it in my shop now it has been sitting since 2nd week in October I charged the batter overnight it says it did not even need that. When it started i expected a cloud of oil smoke, I got none. The hour meter says 327 hours on it. I dont think i can post phots from my shop low internet connection, but when i got the tractor it did look exceptional all over.

[RED-Z06 2,221]

1 hour ago, jeff lary said:

I have it in my shop now it has been sitting since 2nd week in October I charged the batter overnight it says it did not even need that. When it started i expected a cloud of oil smoke, I got none. The hour meter says 327 hours on it. I dont think i can post phots from my shop low internet connection, but when i got the tractor it did look exceptional all over.

327hrs isnt even broken in so long as it hasnt been eating dirt.  I pulled a 13hp model apart that had 1200hrs, guy ran it with the filter so encased in dirt it bypassed...it had so little compression it couldn't start without help down the intake, and had 0 power, gulped oil.  The rings were so shot they could fall through the cylinder, piston was so worn that the skirts were paper thin.

 

However; besides a narrow wear band at the top at the ring inversion zone, the bore measured new diameter, I ran a glaze buster down it, new piston and chromoly rings...fired right up, ran like new.

 

 

 

[jeff lary 171]

I am down to carb removal now but did i need to do that for a leak down test? I guess I now remove the valve cover make sure valves are in the closed position then try the test?

I tried to add a photo but it seems to be way above my pay grade to figure that out. I made a folder on my desktop and put in 4 jpegs. I wanted to show one photo, that i have the valve cover off but there seems to be no way to search my computer for the folder i want. I wish there was a simple "attach"/ paper clip icon at the top here but i have none.

Edited December 20, 2022 by jeff lary
more comment

[jeff lary 171]

I just did the test as best as I could get the engine was tdc compression. I wedged the flywheel with a stick of cedar to hold it still as it kept trying to rotate. I set my gauge at 100 psi and connected it up. The regulator side dropped to 90 --- and the engine? leak side gauge dropped to 40. The air was coming up the valve galley and more so up the oil dip stick tube. So, she needs rings,..Right? and maybe more?

Edited December 20, 2022 by jeff lary

[Snoopy11 5,714]

1 hour ago, jeff lary said:

I tried to add a photo but it seems to be way above my pay grade to figure that out. I made a folder on my desktop and put in 4 jpegs. I wanted to show one photo, that i have the valve cover off but there seems to be no way to search my computer for the folder i want. I wish there was a simple "attach"/ paper clip icon at the top here but i have none.

Your photo sizes may be too large... not sure.

 

At one time, I thought there was some sort of 'limit' that users have to the amount of photos that they can attach... that could be the culprit.

 

On the forum, the only way around that is to become a supporter of Redsquare.... I supposed that is one of the marketing tricks that comes with invision forum software...

 

As a workaround...

 

Can you upload the photos to "Google photos" ?

 

Google will provide you with links to the photos that you can share with us and don't have to support Redsquare.

 

https://support.google.com/photos/answer/6131416?hl=en&co=GENIE.Platform%3DDesktop

 

Don