Some Questions about a 1974 C-100 8 Speed

[JP56 39]

           For whatever reason, I have been a fan of Older Wheel Horses since I purchased my first used one in 1993. It was a 1971 with a Kohler 8HP cast iron engine. I have no idea what model it was because I purchased it from the son of an old man who had died & it had no stickers left on it any where. It was also way before I found this website. 

          I got tired of floundering with the repairs, so I ended up getting rid of it & replaced it with a Craftsman, which turned out to be an even bigger POS than the K-grow I bought brand new in 1990. After owning the 2 "Brand New" pieces of garbage before & after my first Wheel Horse, I went and bought the 1974 C-100. If I only knew back then, what I know now, & having found this forum, I would probably still have the 74.

          Since then I now still have the 74 C-100 & it was getting tired and frustrating me, so I got another used Horse. This one is a 1988 312-8 with the Kohler Magnum M12HP engine. I was/am surprised at how much these 2 years of Horses have in common but yet are so different! I am currently using the 312 for all my mowing needs, but have decided to try to resurrect the C-100, and adapt a blower to it for my leaf chores. Both the 74 C-100 & the 88 312-8 were purchased from self proclaimed Wheel Horse "Collector/Restorers", and as hind sight is 20/20, I now know they both were not restorers!

          Sorry to be so long winded, but this is all the lead up to my questions, by way of explaining why I have what may seem to be silly or even stupid questions. I think both tractors had been "restored" by someone as equally or even less experienced then I am & perhaps some parts were used as substitutions for the ones needed of even stripped from other tractor models, both Horse & otherwise.

         

My 1st question about my C-100 is - Does anyone have or can anyone take & send me some pictures or drawings of the Throttle and Choke CABLES from Dash to Carb? (out of all my searches & manuals I have found so far, not a single one shows clearly where & how these 2 cables are supposed to be installed! Mine have been twisted/bent to some bad angles and after cleaning the carb I cannot seem to get the throttle cable back into place to work properly. I am actually thinking it may not be for this model or was cut shorter at some point. I also believe I am missing a clamping bracket or 2, the way this one was bent & twisted it rubbed against the corner of the engine & the bottom of the Governor Rod.

         

My 2nd question has to do with the wiring. Most of it was so old & heated & rotted that the insulation was cracked all over & missing in a few spots. I also found the 3 prong Connector plug on the Regulator/Rectifier was distorted & when I finally got it off, I found the slot for the Orange ignition switch wire & one of the White Stator wires had overheated & melted the plug. Since I couldn't find a new one, I cut the terminal slot for the Orange wire terminal completely off the plug & saw that it had actually melted a hole in the plastic between the 2 terminals. I shrink wrapped the now flattened plug & used a separate terminal for the wire from the switch so my regulator now has 2 flat plugs on it instead of the original L shaped plug. I read somewhere on this web site during my seemingly endless searches, where someone recommended to take the Regulator wire off the Regulator Terminal on the Ignition Switch, and more it over to the Accessory Terminal on the Ignition Switch along with the Lights that were already there, and to make sure to ad a fuse to it. The reason given was due to "parasitic draw" from the regulator when the tractor is not running. Does anyone have any knowledge or experience with this? If so, what size fuse would you install on this leg? This tractor only came to me with one fuse in it, a 15 Amp for the Head &Tail Lights. My 88 312-8 has 3 fuses in it.  2- 30 Amp (one I am guessing is for the starter circuit) & 1- 15 Amp for the Head & Tail Lights. I have no idea what the 3rd one is for.

 

I am sure I have more questions, but right now I am in overload with all the searching I have been doing. Hopefully I will get some good input here then can move on to a few other questions.

[rmaynard 15,927]

The C-100 only has one fuse, and it's in the accessory line (lights). As far as the throttle, I can provide some pictures for you tomorrow. Basically the throttle goes to the governor and the governor controls the carburetor.

[Blasterdad 3,039]

Download last file for wiring diagram.

Orange wire from rectifier goes to "R" terminal on Ignition switch, Light Green from "B" terminal to - side of Ammeter, + Ammeter terminal goes to the battery... This is the charging circiut, DC electricity flows from negative to positive, the key switch stops this connection when off. It doesn't matter which color wire you use to rewire it as long as they are hooked up correctly.

I always use 12 gauge wire. Make sure the voltage regulator housing is grounded good too, I run a ground wire from one of the bolts to a GOOD ground ( negative ).

[JP56 39]

1 hour ago, rmaynard said:

The C-100 only has one fuse, and it's in the accessory line (lights). As far as the throttle, I can provide some pictures for you tomorrow. Basically the throttle goes to the governor and the governor controls the carburetor.

Thanks rmaynard!

I would really appreciate those pics! I have several manuals for the 74 & 75 models, but nowhere do they show the routing of the cables, and they do show 1 pic of the throttle cable connected to the Governor assembly on the left side of the carb at the front, BUT they show a different assembly then what is on my tractor. I have the Vertical arm & the spring and tab with 8 holes going down it & the rod & spring going across to the right side of the carb. But the manuals also show a somewhat round part on the vertical governor shaft, but I do not have a part like that on mine. I will take some pics tomorrow as well of what the front of mine has & post them here for you to see. I am also wondering if both cables are supposed to go down through the 2 square holes in the gas tank plate or through the 2 long slots to the sides of the plates. I can see where at one time or another, both of my cables have been mounted both ways & I believe that is what caused the bending & binding of the cables near the handle ends near the inside of the dash mount.  

[JP56 39]

1 hour ago, Blasterdad said:

Download last file for wiring diagram.

Orange wire from rectifier goes to "R" terminal on Ignition switch, Light Green from "B" terminal to - side of Ammeter, + Ammeter terminal goes to the battery... This is the charging circiut, DC electricity flows from negative to positive, the key switch stops this connection when off. It doesn't matter which color wire you use to rewire it as long as they are hooked up correctly.

I always use 12 gauge wire. Make sure the voltage regulator housing is grounded good too, I run a ground wire from one of the bolts to a GOOD ground ( negative ).

Thanks Blasterdad! 

I am going to download this manual & check it, but I believe I already have this one. What you described is how mine is/was wired. I was just looking for confirmation/opinions on moving it to the ACC terminal.  So sounds like it would be best to just keep it the same since it appears to be a pretty simple system so why change it then. I am using #12 with high heat tolerance insulation for everything, & glad you mentioned the ground to the Regulator mounting too. I had already decided to add an additional grounding wire (#8 or 10 copper) from that, to the upper frame, to the engine itself, then back to the battery negative. I have found over the years, "as a glutton for punishment" by owning most model years of the Doge/Chrysler/Plymouth Mini Vans that grounds are very very important, much MORE then most people realize! I had one that was so plagued with electrical gremlins affecting the engine, that could not be trace or figured out to be caused by anything! I looked around under the hood at the mfg's sorry looking excuse for "alleged" grounds and  decided to take #8 green wire & went around the engine compartment. From hood to fender to engine block, to other fender to battery, and never had another problem with the van again.

[ohiofarmer 3,333]

    You are correct in that the cables to the choke and carb can be a problem.  The linkage to the carb/governor can have parts like stand offs and bushings missing because once removed from the tractor for whatever reason,they get lost on the parts tray.  i am lucky to own enough different machines that i can always refer back to the ones that have stayed original. also be mindful that repop chinese carbs may be backwards for the choke cable to be routed properly. The result can be that the choke may be easier to operate opposite from what the dashboard says. 

   I can tell you for a fact that the magnum engines are less fussy than the older ones, but the 3,4,500 series have some plastic bushings on the transmission belt pully that can wear through and be a nightmare to repair. Take off your belt cover and examine them before it is too late.

  There are also available on this site some simplified wiring diagrams that enable you to make your own new and tight wiring harness while leaving the old harness intact for the next owner to do as they wish.Or just remove the whole thing if you wish

[rmaynard 15,927]

I apologize in advance for the watermarks on these pictures, but you should be able get what you need from the images.

These pictures are from a B-100. Routing is the same on a C-100.

 

 

Edited November 1, 2022 by rmaynard

[oliver2-44 10,370]

I have a recently acquired parts Raider tractor that has  the throttle cable mounted on a standoff below the exhaust/governor arm area. I like this setup a lot as it gets the throttle cable jacket away from the hot exhaust and the throttle wire is also away from the small rod that goes from the bell crank back to the governor.  I currently have the carburetor off for cleaning to see if the engine will run, but can show most of it.  Ill get some pictures later today

[JP56 39]

12 hours ago, rmaynard said:

The C-100 only has one fuse, and it's in the accessory line (lights). As far as the throttle, I can provide some pictures for you tomorrow. Basically the throttle goes to the governor and the governor controls the carburetor.

Good morning Jim, That would be fantastic ! Thank you so much! We had rain here all night and everything is soaked so I haven't gone out yet , but I am going to go out &take a few pics of mine for the areas I was questioning about to post. I am not sure what it is called, but my throttle goes across the front of the engine over to the right side & connects to a tab that is mounted about a half inch off the engine cover on a pivot below the ignition coil, with the connecting rod to the governor. It is about 2 inches long with a bushing behind it & 1/4 - 20 bolt through the center of it, the throttle cable in the bottom hole & the governor rod in the top hole going back to the governor arm on the left side. Seems like a pretty stupid set up to me. I like the other style better which is what I think you described.

[JP56 39]

16 hours ago, rmaynard said:

The C-100 only has one fuse, and it's in the accessory line (lights). As far as the throttle, I can provide some pictures for you tomorrow. Basically the throttle goes to the governor and the governor controls the carburetor.

Good morning Jim, That would be fantastic ! Thank you so much! We had rain here all night and everything is soaked so I haven't gone out yet , but I am going to go out &take a few pics of mine for the areas I was questioning about to post. I am not sure what it is called, but my throttle goes across the front of the engine over to the right side & connects to a tab that is mounted about a half inch off the engine cover on a pivot below the ignition coil, with the connecting rod to the governor. It is about 2 inches long with a bushing behind it & 1/4 - 20 bolt through the center of it, the throttle cable in the bottom hole & the governor rod in the top hole going back to the governor arm on the left side. Seems like a pretty stupid set up to me. I like the other style better which is what I think you described.

[JP56 39]

[JP56 39]

On 10/31/2022 at 8:53 PM, JP56 said:

           For whatever reason, I have been a fan of Older Wheel Horses since I purchased my first used one in 1993. It was a 1971 with a Kohler 8HP cast iron engine. I have no idea what model it was because I purchased it from the son of an old man who had died & it had no stickers left on it any where. It was also way before I found this website. 

          I got tired of floundering with the repairs, so I ended up getting rid of it & replaced it with a Craftsman, which turned out to be an even bigger POS than the K-grow I bought brand new in 1990. After owning the 2 "Brand New" pieces of garbage before & after my first Wheel Horse, I went and bought the 1974 C-100. If I only knew back then, what I know now, & having found this forum, I would probably still have the 74.

          Since then I now still have the 74 C-100 & it was getting tired and frustrating me, so I got another used Horse. This one is a 1988 312-8 with the Kohler Magnum M12HP engine. I was/am surprised at how much these 2 years of Horses have in common but yet are so different! I am currently using the 312 for all my mowing needs, but have decided to try to resurrect the C-100, and adapt a blower to it for my leaf chores. Both the 74 C-100 & the 88 312-8 were purchased from self proclaimed Wheel Horse "Collector/Restorers", and as hind sight is 20/20, I now know they both were not restorers!

          Sorry to be so long winded, but this is all the lead up to my questions, by way of explaining why I have what may seem to be silly or even stupid questions. I think both tractors had been "restored" by someone as equally or even less experienced then I am & perhaps some parts were used as substitutions for the ones needed of even stripped from other tractor models, both Horse & otherwise.

         

My 1st question about my C-100 is - Does anyone have or can anyone take & send me some pictures or drawings of the Throttle and Choke CABLES from Dash to Carb? (out of all my searches & manuals I have found so far, not a single one shows clearly where & how these 2 cables are supposed to be installed! Mine have been twisted/bent to some bad angles and after cleaning the carb I cannot seem to get the throttle cable back into place to work properly. I am actually thinking it may not be for this model or was cut shorter at some point. I also believe I am missing a clamping bracket or 2, the way this one was bent & twisted it rubbed against the corner of the engine & the bottom of the Governor Rod.

         

My 2nd question has to do with the wiring. Most of it was so old & heated & rotted that the insulation was cracked all over & missing in a few spots. I also found the 3 prong Connector plug on the Regulator/Rectifier was distorted & when I finally got it off, I found the slot for the Orange ignition switch wire & one of the White Stator wires had overheated & melted the plug. Since I couldn't find a new one, I cut the terminal slot for the Orange wire terminal completely off the plug & saw that it had actually melted a hole in the plastic between the 2 terminals. I shrink wrapped the now flattened plug & used a separate terminal for the wire from the switch so my regulator now has 2 flat plugs on it instead of the original L shaped plug. I read somewhere on this web site during my seemingly endless searches, where someone recommended to take the Regulator wire off the Regulator Terminal on the Ignition Switch, and more it over to the Accessory Terminal on the Ignition Switch along with the Lights that were already there, and to make sure to ad a fuse to it. The reason given was due to "parasitic draw" from the regulator when the tractor is not running. Does anyone have any knowledge or experience with this? If so, what size fuse would you install on this leg? This tractor only came to me with one fuse in it, a 15 Amp for the Head &Tail Lights. My 88 312-8 has 3 fuses in it.  2- 30 Amp (one I am guessing is for the starter circuit) & 1- 15 Amp for the Head & Tail Lights. I have no idea what the 3rd one is for.

 

I am sure I have more questions, but right now I am in overload with all the searching I have been doing. Hopefully I will get some good input here then can move on to a few other questions.

UPATE & Naturally, More Questions 

I did get my C-100 rewired & Started up about 6pm tonight, but I had some engine missing, erratic idling, a few backfires, and I did the first start with the muffler still off it, & I had a few flames shooting out the muffler nipple during the back firing before I put the muffler back on it. I really am getting desperate to see a few more different pics of several different people's throttle/governor hook ups, as well as which holes the connecting spring is hooked to on the governor end and the center pivot bracket under the breather cover. Mine was originally hooked in the 2nd hole Up from the Bottom on the governor arm, and the 2nd hole Down from the Top on the center pivot lever. rmaynard posted some really good pics, but I can't really see the detail I need to see.

 

I had a very hard time getting the points to set at .20 because either the points base, or the OEM bracket it screws on to must be bent or something, just not sure. Also thinking possibly my points could be causing the missing/back firing since there is no distributor on these for timing them.

 

I am pretty sure my problems are in that setup, & I also would really like to see that other part at the bottom of the governor that some may have on your governor as well where the cable does not go across the front of the engine to the other side. I took a close look at the one clam & bracket mounted between my gas tank & the PTO swing bracket today & finally realized it was most likely a home made replacement as it was made from a strip about 5/8 wide x 3" long very thin, soft flexible metal. I am going to replace it with a piece of flat bar stock I have. Also wish I could find a few of the OE style Strap Clamps that lock the cable down tight, the kind with a tiny tab that goes into a hole & then the screw hole is in the center then the 1/2 circle end. All I can seem to find anyplace is the loop type which only holds the cable but not lock it down. I have no idea what exactly they are called but no matter how I search for them I come up empty. Very frustrating.

 

I also made a 1/4-20 grade 6 stud & put t in place of the bolt that holds the throttle pivot to the block between the bottom of the governor pivot bracket (with the spring & adjusting holes on it) then used a 1/4-20 x 1/7" long threaded rod connector & put a strap clamp on to the end of that to hold the cable before it goes to the attaching point on the throttle cable connecting lever on the right side on the engine shroud under the coil. 

 

Other then that, I am now searching for a replacement spring for my clutch, then have to change that & re-adjust the clutch. When I got the tractor, the original spring had the end snapped off it & the broken end had been pulled thru the hole & bent over so it would stay. It worked when I got it, but it would act up (Having the same problem on my 312-8 as well since the day I got it!) changing gears sometimes, & right now it wants to grind them all the time when trying to shift it. The spring feels very soft/weak to me as well but I also saw discussion about the sizing of the Toro 108035 replacement spring replacing the OEM Wheel Horse Spring 1014 not being the same size, and I also noticed it seems to come in a multi-pack of 5 springs. Anyone have first hand experience with these spring replacements?

 

Sure hope you folks can help me out here! Thanks much.

 

 

[Jeff-C175 7,203]

On 11/1/2022 at 2:30 PM, JP56 said:

described.

 

I posted some pics and other info in the other thread you posted in...

Throttle cable goes between the governor arm and the engine, the missing bracket and clamp goes on the valve cover stud.

 

 

This tab is an adjustable stop that is adjusted to you can't go over 3600 RPM

 

 

 

Edited November 4, 2022 by Jeff-C175

[JP56 39]

5 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

 

I posted some pics and other info in the other thread you posted in...

 

Throttle cable goes between the governor arm and the engine, the missing bracket and clamp goes on the valve cover stud.

 

 

This tab is an adjustable stop that is adjusted to you can't go over 3600 RPM

 

 

 

Thanks Jeff, I appreciate the time you took for this!

The bracket you drew in on the breather cover is & was missing. The full speed throttle Stop tab, was & is still there, and the anchor bolt holding all of that on is what I adapted with a stud & threaded rod connector. I will take and post a couple of pics of it tomorrow. I got lucky with the paint tho, when I removed the bolt, tab it left a nice clean mark where the stop tab was set, so I didn't have to play around or guess at it. That is probably the only thing on this tractor that was not messed with ever, since you could actually see the clean iron under it & the Original paint line. I got a kick out of that.

 

The anchor tab on the breather is long gone as it was when I bought this tractor, & the anchor strap up on the left behind the PTO I believe is a home made one (very flimsy thin flexible metal) my first horse, the 1971 HP 8 speed had nice thick solid steel brackets & every single cable clip it was supposed to have! I should have stripped that bad boy down before I got rid of it !  Had no idea at the time that I would be such a Horse lover then unfortunately.

 

As far as the cable going behind the governor arm, I guess I can try to make an angled clip to go on the breather stud tomorrow & see if the cable will clear both the block & the arm rerouting it that way back to the original, then I'll just go with the way it works best

[Blasterdad 3,039]

On 10/31/2022 at 11:35 PM, JP56 said:

So sounds like it would be best to just keep it the same since it appears to be a pretty simple system so why change it then

 

 Yep, Don't change it. 

[953 nut 57,963]

10 hours ago, JP56 said:

I had a very hard time getting the points to set at .20 because either the points base, or the OEM bracket it screws on to must be bent or something, just not sure. Also thinking possibly my points could be causing the missing/back firing since there is no distributor on these for timing them

The adjustment of your ignition points sets the ignition timing. This video is better than any explanation I could give you.

his

[peter lena 9,092]

@JP56  noting your choke/ throttle cable issue , I use this on / on all my related cabling , https://www.zoro.com/super-lube-4-oz-hydraulic-oil-bottle-68-iso-viscosity-80w-sae-52004/i/G2272326/?  local h/w store probably has it ,another thing I  do is to firm up and lubricate , pull points with small washers , eliminating play and making  response , smoother / easier . another thing I  do is to not force the cable in place , let it be where it works easiest, verify action as you set up , hang cable vertically , and add  super lube to it , till drip out ,  and function check . easily add cable clamps where needed . have even added light pull springs to my cable / lever end pull points . only suggestions , pete  

[oliver2-44 10,370]

@JP56 Sorry for the delay. This weekend is our deer season opening weekend so I’ve had things to get ready at the farm/camp

This is a 1969 Raider parts machine I just got trading some parts. I have the carb off cleaning it to see if engine will run. So the throttle cable is not in place. 

Notice the bracket arm sticking out below the governor spring. It is mounted with one bolt on the top left cam gear cover. So instead of the throttle cable curving tightly around the corner of the engine at the muffle and throttle arm area it goes forward and turns at this bracket then goes to the bell rank like normal. This bracket gets the cable out in front of all the governor linkage nice and clear. I’ve never seen one like this before. The bracket looks factory made. 

Here another picture

@Ed Kennell Your a Raider guy, have you (or anyone else) ever seen a throttle cable bracket like this? 
 

I like it!

[JP56 39]

58 minutes ago, oliver2-44 said:

@JP56 Sorry for the delay. This weekend is our deer season opening weekend so I’ve had things to get ready at the farm/camp

have you (or anyone else) ever seen a throttle cable bracket like this? 

On 10/31/2022 at 8:53 PM, JP56 said:

 

Thanks Jim, No problem! I have never seen one like that but I sure wish I had that bracket right now!

[Ed Kennell 40,500]

11 hours ago, oliver2-44 said:

 

@Ed Kennell Your a Raider guy, have you (or anyone else) ever seen a throttle cable bracket like this?

I don't have a Raider now, but I don't believe any of the 6-8 that have passed thru my barn had that bracket.

[Jeff-C175 7,203]

Looks homemade to me... and you can see that 'extra' loose bolt on the valve cover stud where the bracket should be...

 

 

[JP56 39]

10 hours ago, Jeff-C175 said:

Looks homemade to me... and you can see that 'extra' loose bolt on the valve cover stud where the bracket should be...

 

 

I got mine up & running tonight, called it quits about 5:45. Still has a miss in it & you would not believe what I went thru trying to set the point gap! 

I am not positive but I am suspecting that maybe a key snapped of on the flywheel shaft it there is one there, because after watching the videos & trying to set the gap according to those, both with a meter or by eye thru the peep hole, I could only get the gap to set & send spark by setting the gap almost 1/2 way between the S & T marks on the flywheel. I opened it yesterday 7 cleaned the heck off it so I could see it. I probably should have done the points while I still had it apart ! Tomorrow I will take pics & post how I ended up doing the throttle cable & attaching it where that bracket was missing. Now I am trying to find a good adhesive to glue my new brake lining into the band. That will be tomorrows project & I started adapting a 5HP push around leaf blower to attach to the front of the tractor so I don't have to walk that bugger all over my 1 acre yard with those stupid 2" swivel casters on the front of it. Got things laid out today, just a couple of cuts & some holes to drill for attaching it tomorrow ! I am putting it on a swivel on the deck drive belt tensioner in that center hole above the adjusting knob. If that works out as well as I hope, I will post that too. Maybe put it under "What did you do to your Horse today" 

 

 

[rjg854 11,881]

I used Original Gorilla Glue to attach the brake lining, and it has held up well.  What I mean by that is that it hasn't loosened up.