Eavestrough

[bc.gold 3,403]

Are eaves troughs actually required, thinking of removing them to avoid ice build up under the asphalt shingles.

[ebinmaine 67,483]

10 minutes ago, bc.gold said:

eaves troughs actually required

 

My own house... Absolutely NOT. 

We've thought about installing gutters here for several years to collect, direct and use the rain water for specific purposes like garden irrigation or animal watering. 

We haven't done it yet for exactly the reason you mention. Ice dams. 

 

 

It's a local code or rule issue in some places. 

There are areas where watershed collection is governed. 

There are houses and yards where the engineers have designed in certain watershed expectations. 

 

You could also consider installing a heat wire to the first few feet of your roof.  

 

Now that we have a metal roof on the house and soon will have one on the new pole barn we've been discussing a collection system again.  

 

[JoeM 7,874]

I have found ice damming is caused by poor roof ventilation. 

 

As far as gutters, you have to clean them, and if your not concerned about water along the foundation gutters are not necessary. 

[JimSraj 429]

Ice dams are caused by heat escaping through the ceiling into the attic where it warms the roof sheathing and melts the snow on the roof deck. When that melt waiter flows over the unseated eave it can freeze and build up as ice. A heat cable in the gutter and over the eave will help but the real solution is to minimize the heat loss with adequate insulation. Also, ice and water shield on the roof deck covering the eaves and at least 2’ plumb up from the inside of the exterior wall is required by most codes now. Additionally, proper attic ventilation from the eave soffit directly under the sheathing extending 2’ beyond the top of the insulation on the attic floor.  

You can rent insulation blowing machines and add to the R value of you ceiling with cellulose or fiberglass pretty easily. Some suppliers even let you use their machine if you buy the insulation from them. 

It will not only help eliminate ice dams it’ll help lower your heating bill. 

[ebinmaine 67,483]

6 minutes ago, JimSraj said:

Additionally, proper attic ventilation from the eave soffit directly under the sheathing extending 2’ beyond the top of the insulation on the attic floor

This might be a contributing factor for an issue on the front of our house.  

It faces North East away from the sun and has thick tree cover so the snow stays there longer. 

There's also limited space between the insulation at the edge and the roof sheathing. 

We've had a few small ice jams there over the years and didn't want to exacerbate the problem holding back the snow even more.  

 

Couple years ago we got a roof rake snow remover. Definitely a big help.  

 

 

[Rob J. 1,941]

Gutters aren’t your problem. Lack of air flow is your problem. They make a baffle that staples on the bottom side of your roof then apply your insulation. This allows air flow between the roof and the insulation. 

[Rob J. 1,941]

21 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

This might be a contributing factor for an issue on the front of our house.  

It faces North East away from the sun and has thick tree cover so the snow stays there longer. 

There's also limited space between the insulation at the edge and the roof sheathing. 

We've had a few small ice jams there over the years and didn't want to exacerbate the problem holding back the snow even more.  

 

Couple years ago we got a roof rake snow remover. Definitely a big help.  

 

 

Roof rakes are a requirement for snowy areas. You really only need to take about 10’ up from the gutters. Be careful with rake slamming on shingles, can damage them as a result. 

Edited October 2, 2022 by Rob J.

[ebinmaine 67,483]

14 minutes ago, Rob J. said:

Gutters aren’t your problem. Lack of air flow is your problem. They make a baffle that staples on the bottom side of your roof then apply your insulation. This allows air flow between the roof and the insulation. 

We have that baffle. 

Works fine on the sunny side of the house. 

Barely works on the shaded side. 

 

 

13 minutes ago, Rob J. said:

Roof rakes are a requirement for snowy areas. You really only need to take about 10’ up from the gutters. Be careful with rake slamming on shingles, can damage them as a result. 

Good advice there.  

Use care.  

 

We have a lightweight rake on aluminum lightweight poles. 

 

We cleared about 5' up. Eliminates our issues with snow melt.  

Now that we have a metal roof WE don't do the clearing.  It slides off... 

[Racinbob 11,077]

I've always been big on getting water away from the house. Typically that means gutters. I don't think gutters really contribute to ice dams and buildup as long as, like has been said, you have adequate insulation and ventilation in your attic. But there's the issue of cleaning them if leaves are an issue for you. So gutter guards come into play. But they can cause problems too. Here's my 2¢worth based on my experience with them. First, with this internet picture.

 

 

Avoid these and any of the derivatives out there. Their function is marginal. Leaves and other crap will still get in. They create a perfect wasp hotel. They are intrusive to your shingles. They CAUSE ice buildup. The reason for that is even with great insulation and ventilation under certain conditions water will freeze on them. There are days in the winter where it's below freezing and the sun is shining. The roof absorbs some of that heat, snow melts and it hits the still freezing metal causing it to freeze up. On a previous house we had a horrible problem with ice buildup. We had plenty of insulation and great ventilation AND this style of gutter guards were on the house when we moved in. The first four things I mentioned were reason enough to remove them so I did. Bingo! The ice problem totally went away. We sold that house and moved to the one we're in now. No ice problem but a leaf problem and my bones are getting too old for the constant cleaning to keep them flowing good. I tried several ways to do it from the ground but it was getting old. Enter the gutter guard research. Here are three of the styles I considered. 

 

 

On the left is a low priced unit. I looked at several similar products. The biggest problems I saw was wasps could still get in and pine needles and leaf stems would get themselves stuck. There are also quite flimsy. 

 

In the middle in a bit of an improvement and a little more expensive. But the fine mesh you see is just plastic and was coming off right out of the box. 

 

On the right is what I consider a major improvement and also more expensive in a major way. A lot stronger and the mesh is stainless steel. I wondered if water would refreeze before it made it through the mesh. Only time could tell me that. We now have these on our house. Last winter we had above average snowfall and I kept close tabs on them. So far absolutely zero issues with ice leaves or wasps. So far I'm loving them.

 

 

 

[squonk 41,103]

I looked at those stainless guards too. Holy Crap! $$$$ 

[Horse Newbie 7,069]

I thought Eavestrough was a small coastal village in northern Maine !

[Racinbob 11,077]

31 minutes ago, squonk said:

I looked at those stainless guards too. Holy Crap! $$$$ 

 

That was my reaction too Mike but I let the boss lady make the decision. There's similar guards out there that are certainly cheaper and possibly just as good but she was bound and determined to keep me from making that many trips up and down a ladder. 

[Rob J. 1,941]

I have basic guards on my gutters. They keep most of the crap out but I still take a garden hose and rinse them out every spring after the ice is gone. 

[Horse Newbie 7,069]

When we bought our house (average snowfall about 2 inches every 5 years or so), there were giant White Oaks on our wooded lot. I could see what we were in store for and commenced to getting estimates from gutter companies.

We chose the first company that came out and gave us a demo.

The Gutter Shutter’s are guaranteed for life against clogging, as are the oversized downspouts. When we have our roof replaced about 3 years ago the roofers discovered deck rot about a foot up from the bottom on significant areas. The rot was caused by improper installation of the starter strip of the shingle roof, not ice dams.

The roof job came standard with 2 sheets of OSB , and we needed more. The roofing company allowed me to run to Lowes and buy some instead of paying their price of $75 per sheet.

They also installed ice and water shield about 3 ft up from the bottom and valleys. The rot had however caused the facia boards to start pulling away from the ends of the rafters. 
After the roofers left I went all of the way around the house (about 400 ft) and screwed the facia boards back to the ends of the rafters with 4 inch long screws.

By using the long screws I was able to get beyond the ends of the rafters where there was a small amount of rot.

To get the screws in I had to remove and replace the tops of the gutters. So I literally hand washed the fronts, tops, and insides of all the gutters on the house. I was quite surprised when I found a  very little amount of leaves in the gutters, and nowhere nearly an amount that would cause a clog.

When I built my “horse” barn I use gutter from Lowes so that small run is not seamless gutter, but I can live with that. I used the snap on guards that are in the middle of the pic above. I made end caps for the ends to keep birds, not wasps out. I also used those gutter guards on the overhang portion I built onto the front of my shop.

[peter lena 8,625]

@bc.gold  have ice shielding under all my roofing , also have roof turbines  on my house over 35 years , those combined with correct soffit  air draw insures a constant  air change in my  attic  air flow ,  have aluminum gutter guards in place , enhanced  gutter drainage angle , water literally blows out of 4"  plastic pipe  extension on gutter ends . that roof , attic  venting is vital to equalise air flow  and temperature balance .  we all have a different set up , and related tree , debris drop issues , worst in my area is the pine trees , the falling needles  are a constant mess , pete 

[peter lena 8,625]

@Horse Newbie  / @ebinmaine  https://www.lomanco.com/vents/whirlybirds   have these on more than 35 years , mill finish , no external bracing , 2 on the house 2 on the garage , they change the attic air every  2 minutes  , pulling air thru the soffits  , so the air is never dead , zero condensation ,  attic temp  is  very close to outside , never a dead heat . they constantly spin , silent , no problems , no leaks , they silently work , pete 

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

11 hours ago, JoeM said:

I have found ice damming is caused by poor roof ventilation. 

 

10 hours ago, JimSraj said:

Ice dams are caused by heat escaping through the ceiling into the attic where it warms the roof sheathing and melts the snow on the roof deck. When that melt waiter flows over the unseated eave it can freeze and build up as ice.

 

10 hours ago, Rob J. said:

Lack of air flow is your problem

 

I've found that BOTH lack of ventilation AND lack of insulation to be the culprits.

 

Not only insulation... AIR SEALING is very important too!  Even if you have insulation, if there are air leaks, that insulation will be rendered useless when humid air from the home condenses on it.  IMHO, the attic floor should first be SPRAYED with 1" of closed cell foam, and then fiberglas or cellulose on top of it.

 

If you didn't have heat escaping into the attic area, the snow melt issue and re-freezing at the roof eave would be minimized.

 

I did BOTH and cured the really bad ice damming issue that I had here.  The biggest culprit was the lack of insulation though. 

 

Ventilation is actually more important in getting the moist air out of the attic where it will cause mold issues when the moisture condenses.

It needs to be coupled with ridge and gable end venting.  The air coming in has to have a way to get out also.

 

Edited October 2, 2022 by Jeff-C175

[Snoopy11 5,714]

17 hours ago, Jeff-C175 said:

IMHO, the attic floor should first be SPRAYED with 1" of closed cell foam, and then fiberglas or cellulose on top of it.

Yes, yes, that is what we did several years ago. It wasn't cheap though, Sir Lord Von Quackenbosch...

 

 

Don

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

1 hour ago, Snoopy11 said:

wasn't cheap

 

No... and as cheap as the 'royal administration' is around here, it's surprising the funds were allocated!  In the long run it pays back, maybe that's why?

 

[ebinmaine 67,483]

18 hours ago, Jeff-C175 said:

SPRAYED with 1" of closed cell foam

I don't suppose you could elaborate on how you went about doing that?

[Snoopy11 5,714]

29 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

I don't suppose you could elaborate on how you went about doing that?

https://www.amazon.com/7565002600-Touch-Seal-Insulation-Pre-Connected/dp/B08VF878NJ/ref=dp_prsubs_1?pd_rd_i=B08VF878NJ&psc=1

 

Don

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

1 hour ago, ebinmaine said:

I don't suppose you could elaborate on how you went about doing that?

 

Pretty much what Don said... It was much cheaper 25 years ago though!

Probably a different brand also, but same idea.

 

Edited October 3, 2022 by Jeff-C175

[Snoopy11 5,714]

10 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

It was much cheaper 25 years ago

Snoopy might 'cause he was born in 1950... but I personally wouldn't know... I'm somewhere between generation Y and generation Z... (although unlike most in my generation... I am NOT confused!!!)

 

Don

[Racinbob 11,077]

19 hours ago, Snoopy11 said:

https://www.amazon.com/7565002600-Touch-Seal-Insulation-Pre-Connected/dp/B08VF878NJ/ref=dp_prsubs_1?pd_rd_i=B08VF878NJ&psc=1

 

Don

 

Holy cow!! You'd be better off hiring a company that specializes in spray foam if you want to do that. Using those kits it would cost almost $34k to do our attic. A properly taped and finished inside and you won't have the air leaks. 

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

57 minutes ago, Racinbob said:

almost $34k

 

How big is your home?  I used two kits to do mine.

 

No way could I get an insulation contractor for that.