ELECTRO 12 has no solenoid --scary to me

[ohiofarmer 3,276]

My new horse has no spark, so I removed the gas tank to have a look at the wires going to the dash. The starter circuit runs right through the switch and it seems like that might be asking a lot of a 48 year old unit. I am thinking of adding a solenoid and using the switch to trigger it. I am also thinking that adding a fuse or two might prevent some magic smoke as well.  The Kohler has points ignition is about all i know for now, but I would be grateful for any guidance in finding a wiring diagram for the 1956 Electro 12

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,102]

Helps to know what you are working with.

What is the tractor's model number off the ID plate?

What is the engine's model number and spec number off the ID plate?

How many positions does the ignition key have? Off, run and start or Off, run with accessories, run only and start

A round external ignition coil?

The Electro 12 was built 1968-1970

 

Garry

[953 nut 55,837]

Here is a basic wiring diagram, a fuse could be added to the wire from the ignition switch to battery.

[ohiofarmer 3,276]

The tractor is a Raider with hood decal that says Electro 12. Model# 1-7235. engine K301-S  I was told that it is a 1968 model ,but not sure about that.  The switch has first position 'off and remove key'    2nd click [accessory? like the cigarette lighter?]  3rd click--i am assuming ign., and 4th click start.. a heavy wire feeds direct from the battery to the switch, and another heavy wire feeds from the switch direct to the starter+ post.

 

 The second wire feeds from the switch to the points and condenser, and a third wire feeds from the switch to the cigarette lighter.

 

 Two wires feed out of the cigarette lighter  One goes to the electric clutch and another to the rectifier. I got back as soon as I could, but am already late for an appt.

[rmaynard 15,610]

Many of the older models did not have a solenoid. The ignition/start switch was rated at 70 amps, and the starter went directly to it.

[pfrederi 17,887]

Sounds like you have a magneto system with points.  The wire from the ignition to the Points condenser is a kill  (grounds out the ignition to turn off motor.)  If you replace the ignition switch make sure you get one for a magneto system otherwise you may fry your mag.

 

The two "run positions" one lets the headlights work the other doesn't

[ohiofarmer 3,276]

I am wondering if the mag is already fried. I put a timing light on the machine and could not detect a spark. What tests would you run on the mag besides the visual stuff?

 

 There is so much unknown stuff right now, simply because you need the engine running to check the transmission, The deck will not work with a broken center pulley, and so it goes. The engine oil and transmission oil were clean--perhaps too clean and could be hiding the true condition of how this tractor was when stored.

[pfrederi 17,887]

There really isn't much in the manual about diagnosing mag systems.  They sort of work or they don't.  Disconnect the kill wire, (The one from the ignition switch to the points/condenser.  The switch may be bad an grounding the system all the time.  Also make sure your points are clean and opening/closing.  For the test also disconnect the condenser.  (Lets eliminate potential issues).  if you still have no spark the mag is probably toast.

[ohiofarmer 3,276]

Thank you. That gives me a place to start. Since i also have a Kohler 10 HP, it is possible that the mags can be changed out for further testing to confirm what I find in the tests that you suggest.  I hear that mags are expensive, and not having the tractor running, i do not know how well the hydro transmission is working. I only gave 250.00 for it and that makes it a winner just for the sweet deck and swap out possibilities of the engine if it can fit the Raider 10.

 

 Thanks again for all the help from you guys. i will keep you informed.

[pfrederi 17,887]

Take the spec numbers for your 12 hp and 10 hp go to the Kohler engine site and look up the ignition system section.If the mag part #s are the same you are in business

[ohiofarmer 3,276]

 The wheel Horse site states that the ignition system components are incompatible between the three systems used in the ignition on the k 301, I tested the condenser by switching the unit to the other tractor. Works OK. So now we are down to cleaning the points or maybe just replacing them. The system on my tractor utilizes a mag that is controlled by the points. That is all there is. Mag, points , and condenser.[no coil] i think the tractor should run without the ignition switch hooked up if it is good. Not optimistic at all that it is a good mag.

 

 Even to change that mag out, it looks like quite a challenge to get the spark plug boot through the aluminum housing that also serves as the main crankshaft seal. I do not want to make the problem worse as the book calls for using a puller to remove it.and then cause a leak. I did use a puller to remove the flywheel with no issues.

 

 There is a lot going on with this tractor and I am not certain that the hydro even works. Right now I am afraid to throw good money after bad. The deck is reasonably good, but i need to get a center cast Iron double d pulley or just change the entire shaft/pulley group on the deck. I think before i would do anything that costs a lot, i would figure out a way to spin the tranny drive pulley [perhaps with a little 6.5 Predator I have hanging around] and test out the drive unit and hydraulic lift. No time for that right now.

 

 Not ever going to buy another non-runner. i do not feel sorry for myself in that I got a good spare deck for the Raider and that would probably pay for a loss if I sold it. A good tranny rear end, lift unit, straight sheet metal, and possible good kohler engine without electricals might help other people with their machines IF i decide against going forward with the project. Undecided as of now.

 

Edited August 9, 2016 by ohiofarmer

[ohiofarmer 3,276]

 I got a chance to speak with an old time mower repair man about the mag issue. I bought a set of points for the 301s and we both decided that if that mag was fried that it would be better to just get a stator, a correct switch, and a coil and convert the system to coil. He even told me that a coil from NAPA for old Chevies would do the job. Fortunately, the Raider 10 I already have  has all those parts and i could utilize that to see if this engine will fire and run well. If it does, it will be well worth the money to fix it up with new parts. Something tells me that the more common coil system has a much better chance of still being available as new stock.

The repair guy also said that if i found almost any engine used from the 200's or 300's that I could just salvage stuff to convert it over. I wonder if the old 7HP Kohler cadet engine i have matches up??

 

Things are looking up a bit...........

[pfrederi 17,887]

Again look the 7hp spec number up on the Kohler site and see what the part numbers are for the stator and any other parts you want to transfer then compare to the ones on your 301

[ohiofarmer 3,276]

 I had the Raider10 on the trailer and was on the hunt for a new stator unit that also had the ignition coil.THEY ARE UNOBTAINIUM, so I was looking for a blown motor with electrics. I got very lucky that i found a guy who had worked a bunch on old wheel horses. he said if the Charger 12 that I had was his, he would definitely abandon the old ignition coil that lives under the flywheel and keep the stator for charging the battery. 

 

 He said basically that since my Charger 12 has breaker points that it is a very easy conversion. It takes a different key switch, a different capacitor, and a Kohler coil. he told me not to cheap out on the coil because the Kohler has a resistor in the coil and that is important. We decided to just substitute parts off the raider i0 to the charger 12 to see if it runs

 

 If the other engine is good and I can get it to fire up, you better believe that I am buying my new parts from him no matter the cost. People like him are GOLD.

 

 Just as an afterthought, the reason he knows the old Horses is that the Amish Community run a lot of them and he is Amish. Der Dutchmen know good value when they see it